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scott21
06-05-2010, 03:59 PM
I got a new M1 Garand and I was wandering, how do I sight in my M1 Garand?

Craftsman
06-05-2010, 04:46 PM
I sight-in/zero my Garands at 100 yrds. Front sight - centered. Windage - center position. Elevation, go all the way down, then come up 10-12 clicks. Test shot or two. If left/right way off, may have to adjust front sight with 3/16 allen wrench. Adjust elavation up or down as needed, and test .

musketjon
06-05-2010, 05:06 PM
If you use a front rest make sure it is behind the sling swivel on the stock and not resting on the front hand guard. Other than that Craftsman is spot-on.
Jon

grumpa72
06-05-2010, 05:08 PM
Ahh, Google can be your friend. ;) Type in "sight in my M1 Garand" and you get:

http://www.fulton-armory.com/sighting_in.htm

http://www.agarms.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=92&Itemid=111

And then, there is this:
http://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=18169

There is more but it is kind of like someone telling you what is in your Christmas present before you start ripping the paper off!

deputy85
06-05-2010, 05:48 PM
true or false? you sight in at 25yds your almost dead on at 100yds?

VMFn542bob
06-05-2010, 05:58 PM
I got a new M1 Garand and I was wandering, how do I sight in my M1 Garand?
- to what has already been said I would add - maintaining a good Sight Picture is critical to repeatabiliity (good tight groups).
http://www.thecmp.org/forums/showthread.php?t=8776&highlight=rifle+training+sight+picture&page=2 (http://www.thecmp.org/forums/showthread.php?t=8776&highlight=rifle+training+sight+picture&page=2)
post 16

bold lancer
06-05-2010, 08:53 PM
I got a new M1 Garand and I was wandering, how do I sight in my M1 Garand?
A lot of good advice in this CMP forum, but a question or two:
1. What kind of 'sight' arrangements are you familiar with already (i.e. military type 'peep' sights)?
2. If not, the "sight picture" advice is important.
3. My M1 came to me with 'loose' rear sights and I had to tighten them up.
Make sure you have proper (rear) sight tension.
I found (as stated here) that 8 - 10 clicks up on elevation was good at 100 yds. Fortunately, my windage was good at '0' in low wind.

snellbaker
06-05-2010, 09:30 PM
true or false? you sight in at 25yds your almost dead on at 100yds?

Generally, right on at 25 will give you about 2" high at 100 and about right on at 200.

Just remember, all generalizations are wrong!

Art

scott21
06-06-2010, 02:02 AM
A lot of good advice in this CMP forum, but a question or two:
1. What kind of 'sight' arrangements are you familiar with already (i.e. military type 'peep' sights)?
2. If not, the "sight picture" advice is important.
3. My M1 came to me with 'loose' rear sights and I had to tighten them up.
Make sure you have proper (rear) sight tension.
I found (as stated here) that 8 - 10 clicks up on elevation was good at 100 yds. Fortunately, my windage was good at '0' in low wind. i got the military sights and they aren't loose

scott21
06-06-2010, 02:09 AM
I sight-in/zero my Garands at 100 yrds. Front sight - centered. Windage - center position. Elevation, go all the way down, then come up 10-12 clicks. Test shot or two. If left/right way off, may have to adjust front sight with 3/16 allen wrench. Adjust elavation up or down as needed, and test .

Is there an instructional video on this site? I do better with a visual reference.

scott21
06-06-2010, 02:23 AM
If you use a front rest make sure it is behind the sling swivel on the stock and not resting on the front hand guard. Other than that Craftsman is spot-on.
Jon

I got a question unrelated to my original question....... is there a certain kind of gun grease to grease my M1 Garand, if so where is the cheapest place to buy it. If there is not a certain kind of gun grease for the M1 Garand what would you recommend?

Ben Hartley
06-06-2010, 11:51 AM
Scott...


... is there a certain kind of gun grease to grease my M1 Garand, if so where is the cheapest place to buy it. If there is not a certain kind of gun grease for the M1 Garand what would you recommend?
The "classic" grease is "Lubriplate." I know you can get it from Brownell's ( http://www.brownells.com/Default.aspx ) ; search the site for "Lubriplate." Price in April was $17 + shipping for a 14 ounce can.

Yes, there are reelly-trooly, right up-to-the-day-after-tomorrow potions available, but "Lubriplate" seems to work just fine -- for me, anyway. So, it ain't broke, and I ain't fixin' it. That said:

Many swear by "Plastilube," which might be regarded as an updated "Lubriplate." IIRC, it is available from Scott Duff; sorry, no link; Google "Scott Duff." (I bought ten of the little plastic containers of the stuff several years ago at a gun show -- that actually had (gasp!) guns; don't recall what I paid. Still have all ten of 'em -- full -- around here somewhere.)

UPDATE re Plastilube: from the "Ask Each Other" forum: http://www.thecmp.org/forums/showthread.php?t=17658 for another source of this stuff. (06/06/10; 12:10 p.m.)

A sizable number of folks use high-temp wheel bearing grease from the auto parts store. Cost? Varies, but surely not over ten bucks for more than you'll be likely to use up in this lifetime.

Then, plain ol' gun store "gun grease" works just fine. Price is about five bucks for an occasional shooter's decade-long supply.

HTH

Ben Hartley

BobN54
06-06-2010, 12:12 PM
Ahh, Google can be your friend. ;) Type in "sight in my M1 Garand" and you get:

http://www.fulton-armory.com/sighting_in.htm

http://www.agarms.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=92&Itemid=111

And then, there is this:
http://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=18169

There is more but it is kind of like someone telling you what is in your Christmas present before you start ripping the paper off!

The more I read those procedures the more confused I become about how to calibrate the elevation adjustment knob. If I start with 10 clicks up, my rifle shoots high. My elevation knob needs to about 4 clicks up to be on target at 100 yds sighting with a 6 o'clock hold. Is something wrong with that? Given that, how should I set the index mark on the knob?

VMFn542bob
06-06-2010, 01:09 PM
The more I read those procedures the more confused I become about how to calibrate the elevation adjustment knob. If I start with 10 clicks up, my rifle shoots high. My elevation knob needs to about 4 clicks up to be on target at 100 yds sighting with a 6 o'clock hold. Is something wrong with that? Given that, how should I set the index mark on the knob?
Unless things have changed drastically since 1954 both the windage and elevation knobs on the M1 rifle are calibrated for 1 click equals 1 minute of angle. One minute of angle is very close to 1 inch for every 100 yards.
The initial settings that have been recommended should put you on paper.
If you are on the paper shoot 2 more shots and use the 2 closest to each other to determine how far to move the elevation and windage. Then fire 3 more shots and you should be right on target.
No two rifles will shoot exactly the same so when you have determined the sight settings write them down as your ZERO for that range. To determine what they are set to count the number of clicks to the stop putting the elevation all the way down and the windage all the way to the left.
If you do not cant your rifle the ZERO setting will be repeatable. If you do cant your rifle you are in a heap of trouble.
You will need to find the ZERO for each range you want to shoot at and should write them down in a range book with the serial number of that rifle.
When you go to the range again to shoot, set the sights to the stop and count the clicks to put them at the range you want to shoot. Be sure to take your range book unless you have a fantastic memory.
Hope this helps.

musketjon
06-06-2010, 02:57 PM
Scott,
I bought a tub of hi-temp/hi-pressure wheeel bearing grease at Wal-Mart for about $2. More than a guy could use up in 10 life-times. Never had problem one with it.
Jon

Ben Hartley
06-06-2010, 03:37 PM
Scott...


...The more I read those procedures the more confused I become about how to calibrate the elevation adjustment knob. If I start with 10 clicks up, my rifle shoots high. My elevation knob needs to about 4 clicks up to be on target at 100 yds sighting with a 6 o'clock hold. Is something wrong with that? Given that, how should I set the index mark on the knob?
Nothing at all "wrong" with four clicks elevation for a 100-yard zero. It's a bit low; average, as elsewhere stated is eight to ten. BTW, VMFn542bob is quite correct: each click of elevation or deflection equates to one minute of arc, or about one inch at 100 yards.

Looks to me that your confusion lies is getting the numbers on the sight to match the ranges. Know what? I never bothered figuring out how to do it. The fella that taught me the M1 -- ROTC Summer Camp, 1959 -- was an enlisted Infantry WWII/Korean War vet, who had a good bit of combat experience with the M1. He did show us how to adjust the sight drum, but opined that it wasn't worth the effort.

Better by far, I think, to know the "come ups" for each range you're likely to shoot. You've established 4 up from the bottom is good for 100 yards, right? I don't have a list of common "come ups," but IIRC from your 100 yard sight setting, +2 clicks ("come up two") gets you a usable 200 yard setting. There are standard figures for other ranges. (It might be mentioned that no "standard/book" sight setting should be routinely used without being confirmed by live firing.)

Having totally kanfoozellated the issue, I'll repeat: why bother?

HTH (although it probably hasn't/doesn't)

Ben Hartley

grumpa72
06-06-2010, 05:25 PM
The more I read those procedures the more confused I become about how to calibrate the elevation adjustment knob. If I start with 10 clicks up, my rifle shoots high. My elevation knob needs to about 4 clicks up to be on target at 100 yds sighting with a 6 o'clock hold. Is something wrong with that? Given that, how should I set the index mark on the knob?

Remember that these rifles are up to 60 years old and the sights have been taken apart many times. The 10 clicks was just to get you on paper.

Ok, so, following the instructions that I cut and pasted onto this site, you would set your elevation to four clicks up and then fine tune it. Once you get that done, you loosen the screw on the left just enough that it allows you to turn the elevation wheel to the "1" mark (or is it "0"? I am far away from my M1). Anyhow, once the screw is loose the elevation knob will turn so that you can set it right but the actual peep hole won't move. Once you get it there, you tighten the screw and, voila, you are now centered. You will play with that screw to figure out how much is "just enough" to allow you to rotate the elevation knob without moving the peep sight. Play with it until you get the feel and then go to the range and enjoy.

I printed these instructions out (I only bought my M1 a few weeks ago) to the range and sighted it in as I discussed. It worked quite well. While you are at it, you might want to cut and paste the field strip diagrams and photos as well as nomenclature diagrams.

grumpa72
06-06-2010, 05:54 PM
I got a question unrelated to my original question....... is there a certain kind of gun grease to grease my M1 Garand, if so where is the cheapest place to buy it. If there is not a certain kind of gun grease for the M1 Garand what would you recommend?

Ask a gun owner what is the "best" grease/oil/lube to put into his or her favorite weapon is opening a HUGE can of worms. Kind of like asking which is the best flavor at Baskin Robbins. :D I use white lithium based grease on the appropriate points and Slip 2000 Extreme Weapons Lube because the latter is what my son brought back from Iraq. I figured if it was good enough for the guys in the sand box, it was good enough for me. Btw, the manufacturer sent Slip 2000 in small bottles to anyone who asked for it - free! Talk about true patriots.

americal71
06-08-2010, 02:14 AM
Something to consider - the number of clicks to aim at 6 oclock and hit the center will vary with the diameter of the bull. Since I'm not sure just how many people use the same bull - number of clicks will be variable. I use repair centers from 200 yd slowfire targets reduced to fire at 100 yds. That keeps all the zeros on my rifles comparable. I have noticed that the holes in various M1 aperatures seem to wander a bit from dead center. If your windage seems excesive look at the aperature as well as the front sight and barrel timing. Good shooting.

wrwindsor
06-08-2010, 12:35 PM
The problem I encountered moons ago with setting the elevation knob was the sight moving up/down ever so slightly while you were moving the elevation knob (and trying to keep the sight still) -- enough to be off by one click by the time everything was locked in place.

For me, it was much easier to:
1) *know* how many clicks from bottom it is to be 100yrd zero (good to know 200yrd as well)
2) bottom the rear sight
3) loosen the screw on the elevation (left) knob
4) rotate the knob counter-clockwise (attempting to bottom the sight further) until you get to the 100yrd mark
5) rotate the knob eight more clicks (or whatever your 100yrd zero is)
6) lock the elevation knob screw down

voila. Bring the sight up eight (or whatever) clicks and the knob should be on the 100yrd index.

Knowing your click count to 100yrd or 200yrd can come in handy at the range if your rear sight is too loose and you don't have the tool available to lock it down -- some matches won't let you break out tools on the firing line. FWIW, the symptom is that your shots creep down on the target for every shot, then you find that your sight is too few clicks from bottoming.

When stuck in that situation, bottom the sight and count the clicks up between every shot. This will get you through the firing sequence so that you can tighten the sight when off of the line.

BTDT. :)

Rondog
06-08-2010, 02:05 PM
I just put up a target at 100 yards and shot at it, adjusting the rear sight until I was consistently hitting the bullseye. I then loosened the screw on my elevation knob, turned it to "1" for 100 yards, and tightened it back up.

Is that not the right way to do it? Seemed to work for me.

wrwindsor
06-08-2010, 02:45 PM
I just put up a target at 100 yards and shot at it, adjusting the rear sight until I was consistently hitting the bullseye. I then loosened the screw on my elevation knob, turned it to "1" for 100 yards, and tightened it back up.

Is that not the right way to do it? Seemed to work for me.

That's the textbook method and works fine for the most part.

Like I said in the above post, clicking the loose knob still had a tendency to move the sight a little bit on me.

ch45x7
06-19-2010, 02:28 AM
If you have the M1 Garand booklet that came with the rifle it goes through setting the sights in there.
In my booklet, and in the WWII training videos that are online the process is as follows
1. At 100yrds the sight should come up 8 clicks (This can vary now due to age and being rebuilt, so if 4 clicks works for you it's 4 clicks)
2. Bottom the rear sight out and slightly loosen the screw. (You bottom the sight out so it can't be clicked down when turning the screw to the left)
3. Bring the sight back up the number of clicks you have found for 100yrds/200yrds, which ever you are zeroing for.
4. While making sure the sight doesn't drop down, loosen the screw more until the range marking wheel moves while not actually moving the sight. Turn the dial until the range line lines up with the fixed line.
5. Tighten down the screw again, making sure the sight doesn't move up.
6. Move the sight all the way up, and tighten the screw down all the way. (When the sight is all the way up, tightening the screw should not move the sight at all)
7. Bring the sight all the way down, then count up again and check to make sure the range lines still match up.

Side note about making adjustments for range once you have it Zero'd
Keep this number in mind 2233
It works like this
100-200yrds 2 clicks up
200-300yrds 2 clicks up
300-400yrds 3 clicks up
400-500yrds 3 clicks up
I was given this info at the Appleseed I went to this past weekend. It works for .30 cal American battle rifles (M1 Garand, M14's) because their sights are set for 1 click is 1 MOA.

All this is info that has worked first hand for me. It took me about 25 rounds to make sure it all worked (5 @ 100 to sight in, 5 to confirm, 5 @200, 5 @ 300, 5 @ 400). I had to do the steps to lock in the distance wheel twice, but now it's dead on. Still good to know the clicks though, just in case you have to make changes with out looking.

Hope this helps.

RVN 69-70
06-19-2010, 08:59 AM
[QUOTE=ch45x7;144949]
6. Move the sight all the way up, and tighten the screw down all the way. (When the sight is all the way up, tightening the screw should not move the sight at all)
7. Bring the sight all the way down, then count up again and check to make sure the range lines still match up.


Ahhhhh........now I see why I have a problem with the rear sight elevation ring getting loose after initially setting it! I do not 'move the sight all the way up and tighten the screw down all the way. I just tighten it when I set at 100. Gets loose real soon.

So.......once ya line up the distance you have zeroed at, you raise the elevation to the top and THEN RETIGHTEN.!

I love this forum..........Thanks guys. (QUESTION: Were these facts stated in the manual and I just 'missed'it! Anyway.....thanks for the info guys)

Still learning - even at this age

ch45x7
06-26-2010, 02:59 AM
The info is on pages 22,23 of the U.S. Rifle, Caliber .30, M1 booklet that the CMP sends out with all M1 rifles. I also found this info from an old WWII training video that anyone can download online. If you want it search Rifle Marksmanship with the M1 Rifle. If nothing else it's an entertaining set of videos.
Apologies for not responding sooner, work was a little hectic lately so I have to play some catch up on forums.
As always I hope this helps out. I know I've gotten tones of great info and advice from this forum.

kraigwy
06-26-2010, 01:39 PM
I got my CMP (then DCM) Garand in 1980 or 81. It arrived on a Thursday, I was leaving for a match in Hawaii on the next day (I was shooting for the AK NG). I figured WTH, I took my M14 out of the case and put in the M1.

The first time I fired it was the sighter's, offhand at the 200 yard line. I just put on 9 clicks up (the 200 yard zero for my M-14) and went for it. Turned out my 200 yard zero for the garand was 11 clicks. The windage was right on.

Of course all guns are different. Personally I like to work on the front sight so I can get my 200 yard zero as low as possible for my 200 yard zero. That way when the sight comes out of the base at 600 & 1000 yards, there is less wobble.

The sight drum is fun to play with, and works if you use center of mass hold, but I use a 6 o'clock hold and record (after 30 years recorded to memory) my zeros for 300, 600, and 1000 yards.

But people make too much of sight adjustments for M1s (or any other rifle). Its simple really, move the rear sight the direction you want you impact.

I use to run sniper schools for the National Guard when we used M1C/Ds. I found I could shoot better with iron sights to 1100 yards then I could with the scopes on those rifles. The clicks on the M1, (or mine anyway) are quite positive across the spectrum.

MadeinMichigan
06-27-2010, 11:37 AM
I hope one of the experts can answer my windage question. If I understand correctly I can adjust the impact of my bullet in two ways. If my groups are left of target I can move the front sight, slightly right to move them on target. Also I can rotate the rear windage right which will in turn move the impact point right. Is this correct?

BobN54
06-27-2010, 06:19 PM
Thanks for all of the great information and suggestions in this thread :GS:

kraigwy
06-27-2010, 09:02 PM
If my groups are left of target I can move the front sight, slightly right to move them on target. Also I can rotate the rear windage right which will in turn move the impact point right. Is this correct?

Move the REAR sight the same way you want to move your group. If you are shooting LEFT and want to move the rear sight RIGHT, move the rear sight RIGHT.

Its the oppisite with the front sight. If you group is LEFT, and you want to move it RIGHT, move the front sight LEFT. This pushes the barrel to the RIGHT so to speak, and therefore you end up moving your group to the RIGHT.

Think of the sights as not being movable. Think of it like you are pushing the barrel to which ever way you want to move the group.

Hope this helps.

scr83jp
06-28-2010, 05:54 PM
i got the military sights and they aren't looseI purchased a redfield globe front sight with inserts from Dean Alley after he passed Brownells started carrying them part number 034-200-001 I used this sight for matches and for successfully hunting mule deer in colorado; www.mccannindustries.com (http://www.mccannindustries.com) has an adjustable m1 garand gas system and will turn garands into 458 mag or 338 mag rifles .

MadeinMichigan
06-28-2010, 07:23 PM
Move the REAR sight the same way you want to move your group. If you are shooting LEFT and want to move the rear sight RIGHT, move the rear sight RIGHT.

Its the oppisite with the front sight. If you group is LEFT, and you want to move it RIGHT, move the front sight LEFT. This pushes the barrel to the RIGHT so to speak, and therefore you end up moving your group to the RIGHT.

Think of the sights as not being movable. Think of it like you are pushing the barrel to which ever way you want to move the group.

Hope this helps.

Makes perfect sense. Thank you very much!

MikeeeD296
10-14-2010, 02:56 AM
Side note about making adjustments for range once you have it Zero'd
Keep this number in mind 2233
It works like this
100-200yrds 2 clicks up
200-300yrds 2 clicks up
300-400yrds 3 clicks up
400-500yrds 3 clicks up
I was given this info at the Appleseed I went to this past weekend.

This is strange.....I was at an Appleseed this past weekend and we were given 3334 as the number and it seemed to work real well. Goes to show ya!

kd5iku
12-19-2010, 04:35 AM
Side note about making adjustments for range once you have it Zero'd
Keep this number in mind 2233
It works like this
100-200yrds 2 clicks up
200-300yrds 2 clicks up
300-400yrds 3 clicks up
400-500yrds 3 clicks up
I was given this info at the Appleseed I went to this past weekend.

This is strange.....I was at an Appleseed this past weekend and we were given 3334 as the number and it seemed to work real well. Goes to show ya!

It seems like there is some confusion on this. I'm a shoot boss for Appleseed and here is what we teach.
M1 Garand
100-200yrds 2 clicks up
200-300yrds 3 clicks up
300-400yrds 4 clicks up
400-500yrds 4 clicks up

Out to 1000yds all you need to know is
2,3,4,4,4,5,6,6,7

With the M14 we teach 3,3,4,4,5,5,6,8,8

Some will just teach the M14 comeups as they should be close enough and are easier to remember. (We're only teaching 4moa out to 500yds.) If I have the time I teach both and ALWAYS encourage shooters to learn their rifle's dope as it may vary from the above.

You need to know your comeups, but don't trust it until you have verified that it works for you. (These numbers are based on mil-spec ammo.) And these numbers are not for super accurate shooting but rather "good enough" shooting.

buckshot85
12-19-2010, 09:57 AM
o.k. guys don't laugh but just a little clarity for me please. that is 2 clicks up from the 100 yd. zero. then another 3 clicks up from the 200 yd. to go to 300. correct? just keep adding to the previous come-ups?

kraigwy
12-19-2010, 10:10 AM
Yeap that's it.

However, that's not how I do it. I always run my sights down after shooting a given firing line. Then count up to what ever I need for the next firing line.

ALWAYS

Many years ago we were shooting the team match at the Winston P. Wilson NG Championships. Someone had walked down the line, running down the sights on every un-attended rifle.

I was our state's coach, and it was my habit, when my shooters came to the line to have them run their sights down and then count up to their zero for that line so it didn't get us, but a lot of states were caught.

I've seen a lot of people over the years, for get that they added their clicks after finishing one yard line, and add them again, or forget to add them.

I've always encouraged my shooters to always keep their sights bottomed out, then come up for the given yard line as they start their prep. period.

Forgetting to add or adding twice will really screw up a rapid fire string.

yumbeef
12-28-2010, 09:39 AM
true or false? you sight in at 25yds your almost dead on at 100yds?

in general for all rifles with new or unfamiliar sights/optics, i like shooting at 25yds first and get my windage as close to center as possible and get elevation close. if sights are off, i'll likely just waste ammo at 100yds, and i'll wonder where the bullets are impacting if they dont hit paper.

kraigwy
12-28-2010, 12:24 PM
Maybe this picture will give you an idea.

The M1/M14/M16a1 battle sight zero was 250 yards (meters). This picture is the Canadian Bull, the zero target. It was suppose to be set at 25 meters (1000 inches). You aimed at the Bull and your group should hit the X. The bottom X is for the M1/M14, the top X is for the M16a1.

They came out with another silly zero target for the M16s but when I was running the Alaska National Guard Marksmanship Unit I stuck to the Canadian Bull. It was a lot more effective for getting a BSZ. It does work for the M1 & M14. If you sight your rifle to hit the Bull, you'll be closer to a 200 yard zero then a 100 yard. You'll still be a tad high at 100.

http://photos.imageevent.com/kraigwy/posting/websize/Canadian%20Bull%20Target.jpg

Kansas Poster
12-28-2010, 12:45 PM
WOW. It has been a long time to see that target.

But, I would think the M16 strikes should be the lower X.

M1/M14 would be the higher.

Think about where the sights were on the M16.

I might be wrong, it has sure been too long since I was a drill.

kraigwy
12-28-2010, 01:42 PM
No sir, the M16a1 w/193 shoots pretty high at 25 yards when sighted in for 250 yards.

I used that same target to sight my Rem 700 Var. 223 I carried when I was in the LE Counter Sniper Game.

Sighted in using the Canadian bull, top X and I was right on at 250 yards. Aiming at the mouth area of a head size targets you could make head shots up to 300 yards.

Right out of the USAMU (LE) Counter-Sniper Guide. Fact is they (the AMU) got me lined up with that rifle when I went to their sniper school in 1978.

Kansas Poster
12-28-2010, 05:09 PM
I do not buy that.

The sights are high on the M16 on both ends. I think the bullet is lower at 25 meters, and still going up.

I found this on the internet. For this target. I bet this in in the books.

"Your dimensions are correct. The target is to be fired at 25 meters not yards. The strike of the bullet for an M14 is 4.6 cm above the point of aim and 2.4 cm below the point fo aim for the M16A1. This will give a battle sight zero of 250 M. The "soldier will earn to hit targets other than 250 meters by adjusting his point of aim". References FM 23-8 M14 & M14A1 rifles, and Rifle Marksmanship and Phamphlet 21-13 The Soldiers BCT Handbook."

I really would like to see a left to right flight path with both the M16 and M1. Reference the 25 meter target.

Help needed by me.

kraigwy
12-28-2010, 06:55 PM
I appoligize, It's backwards. I was brain dead, had me confused and had to go outside and shoot my AR to see.

It's suppose to hit the bottom X.

Sorry Guys.

Unclenick
01-01-2011, 05:30 PM
VMFn542bob,

It will vary with the bullet and velocity, and it varies with how high the sight line is off the bore line.

Running a ballistics program with the front sight height above the bore line, which is 1.075" on my match Garand, I get the results for a Navy (center) hold. If you use a 6:00 hold, you will have to add 2 to 4 clicks of elevation, depending on lighting conditions and your particular hold and eyesight.

150 grain Hornady FMJ at 2800 fps MV:
22 yards for 200 yard zero
45 yards for 100 yard zero

150 grain Hornady FMJ at 2700 fps MV:
20 yards for 200 yard zero
42 yards for 100 yard zero

168 Grain Sierra Matchking at 2640 fps:
20 yards for 200 yard zero
40 yards for 100 yard zero

175 grain Sierra MatchKing at 2640 fps:
20 yards for 200 yard zero
41 yards for 100 yard zero

175 grain Sierra MatchKing at 2550 fps:
18 yards for 200 yard zero
38 yards for 100 yard zero

That should give you some idea of what you are looking at.

racine
01-09-2011, 02:06 PM
But my elevation wheel has the bold letter "M" on it before the first numbers. I take this to mean this wheel is for METERS. How does one now calibrate it for yardage??? What I've decided unless I read elsewhere is to convert that to yards then having this chart, go to a range and plot it out. Once I find what 100, 200, etc. are I'll re-calibrate that wheel and make a new chart and use that for reference.

What happened to me last week was that I zeroed the M1 at 100 yds with a small civ. target. When we later shot the US Army Precision Combat rifle event the targets where the prone silhoutte type and larger.

So here my previous zero was 6 clicks up from bottom, now I needed to be at 10 clicks for 100, 14 for 200, 15 for 300 and 20 for 400. Needless to say for a new shooter it was frustrating. I was told my ammo L/N was different or I was shooting at smaller targets... Either way I'm headed to a longer range with some ammo to zero it it at respective 100, 200, 300 yardage and try to correlate that to my elevation wheel.

My next move will be to acquire some NM front and rear sights for the M1 and see if that improves my scores... I'm open to other suggestions. For now I'm happy that I'm hitting the target mostly when I'm doing my job...
Thanks,
Racine

kraigwy
01-09-2011, 03:42 PM
Don't panic, Practice. First off there isn't that much difference in meters and yards so stop worrying about it. Get a good zero at any given yard line and TRUST IT.

One problem I've seen in changing targets, lets say from a NRA Bullseye target to a silhouette target is the point of aim. Most of us use a 6 O'Clock hold on the bullseye target then a center hold on the silhouette. When things don't work out, we panic and blame our ammo, zero or something else when in reality its us.

National Match sights wont help. First of the only difference between a NM front sight and the standard front sight on a M1/M14 rifle is the NM sight is a bit thinner (though not always) and its tapered from rear to front. This is to keep from looking at the side of the sight to screw up our wind age. You didn't indicate that that was the problem. The rear sight has a hood aperture that is used to give you a half minute change. Thats two inches at 400 yards. 2 inches wont make you miss.

Unless you have some weird ammo, I wouldn't worry about that either. I've been shooting M1/M14s a long time (since 1966) most in competition or running sniper schools using the M1C/Ds. Normal ammo doesn't change your impact that much at the ranges you are talking about. No more then a click or so.

Most shooting, I'd say 95% is mental. I think you are letting that "M" on your sights physic you out. Take a deep breath, relax. get a good position and confirm your zero. A zero isn't worth a hoot if you don't have confidence in it. If you use a 6'oclock hold with the bullseye sight, use it on silhouettes also. Maybe bleed into the back a tad if you have to or better, keep the 6 o'clock hold an click up a tad. Record the change you have on your sights between a bullseye and sihouette target.

Get a note book, call it a data or score book, which ever you want, but record every shot you make, record every snap with dry firing. Record everything. If a fly comes by and farts, record it.

Plot every round you shoot. Now after a shooting session, look at your note book. Draw two lines, one from 12 to 6 and one from 3 to nine. Now you have your target divided into four quarters. Count how many hits in each quarter. Now you can re-evaluate your zero. Adjust your zero until you have an equal number of hits in each quarter.

Sorry I got so long winded, guess it's the coach in me. I'm a firm believer in working on the shooter not the gun.

Unclenick
01-09-2011, 05:28 PM
Racine,

Yes, the knobs come either in 1200 yards or 1100 meters maximum range for foreign purchases. The clicks are the same 1 moa, though. Just learn to count clicks, and don't worry too much about the graduations. They are really only useful to verify that you aren't way off. If you find you are way off, then you want to hold your horses and crank the knob back down to the bottom, then come up the known number of clicks you recorded for 100 yards and then count up to your actual range from there. I don't know anybody who does it by referring to the knob graduations.

One reason for click counting is that no two people's eyes seem to see iron sights exactly the same way. You'll discover even yours don't see them the same way under overcast vs. bright sun conditions. Sometimes 600 yards might be 11 clicks up from 300 and sometimes 13. It depends on you and how much white you like between the top of the sight and the bottom of the bull. So, even if you get a yardage knob, it isn't likely to be calibrated exactly to your vision.

The error between the two types of knobs is less than 1 click all the way to 300 yards. At 600 it becomes 3 clicks, which is enough to want to know you should be below the line. From a ballistics program, for 152 M2 bullets at 2800 fps MV and 168 grain SMK's at 2640 fps MV, the metric sight calibration will be off at the following distances by the amounts too high listed under the bullet weights:



Sight Range Clicks Error
152 168
100M 100 yd +0.13 +0.15
200M 200 yd +0.48 +0.52
300M 300 yd +0.85 +0.88
400M 400 yd +1.38 +1.39
500M 500 yd +2.06 +2.05
600M 600 yd +2.88 +2.69


Note that it takes all the way to about 450 yards for the 168's better BC to get it ahead on trajectory flatness.

racine
01-09-2011, 09:51 PM
One problem I've seen in changing targets, lets say from a NRA Bullseye target to a silhouette target is the point of aim. Most of us use a 6 O'Clock hold on the bullseye target then a center hold on the silhouette. When things don't work out, we panic and blame our ammo, zero or something else when in reality its us.
Good point here but I do keep consistent for point of aim. It didn't make sense to me as I'd already zeroed at 100yds with 10 clicks up before so I may chalk that one to a smaller black target or lower light or the fact that the targets at the match where under a shade of trees?

National Match sights wont help. You didn't indicate that that was the problem. The rear sight has a hood aperture that is used to give you a half minute change. Thats two inches at 400 yards. 2 inches wont make you miss. With my eyesight fading in my 50s the narrower front makes it easier to center the target-at least with my limited M/AR experience.

Unless you have some weird ammo, I wouldn't worry about that either.I was shooting some surplus ammo
Most shooting, I'd say 95% is mental. I think you are letting that "M" on your sights physic you out. If you use a 6'oclock hold with the bullseye sight, use it on silhouettes also. Maybe bleed into the back a tad if you have to or better, keep the 6 o'clock hold an click up a tad. I don't get this message?

Get a note book, call it a data or score book, which ever you want, but record every shot you make, record every snap with dry firing. Record everything. If a fly comes by and farts, record it.

Plot every round you shoot. Now after a shooting session, look at your note book. Draw two lines, one from 12 to 6 and one from 3 to nine. Now you have your target divided into four quarters. Count how many hits in each quarter. Now you can re-evaluate your zero. Adjust your zero until you have an equal number of hits in each quarter.

Sorry I got so long winded, guess it's the coach in me. I'm a firm believer in working on the shooter not the gun.

Kraigwy, I appreciate your ideas here and use them. I just don't have another 30 years to learn everything so I'm trying to absorb as much before I get senile.
Thanks,
Racine