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Twinson
02-29-2016, 11:35 PM
On the WWII battle ships 16" guns. How many shells could a single 16" gun fire in combat conditions?

MTC29
02-29-2016, 11:46 PM
Two rounds a minute with a barrel life around 300 rounds. After WWII a cooler burning powder was developed and along with chrome plating, barrel life was increased by 15%-20%
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v219/MTC29/USS%20Iowa/100_2289_zps4fcdd36e.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v219/MTC29/USS%20Iowa/100_2224_zpsbc85be97.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v219/MTC29/USS%20Iowa/100_2218_zpsf86677e0.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v219/MTC29/USS%20Iowa/100_2314_zpsda26e244.jpg

If you are ever in Long Beach, a visit to the USS Iowa is well worth your time.

Twinson
02-29-2016, 11:47 PM
Thank you, Jim.l

MTC29
03-01-2016, 12:09 AM
On an Iowa Class, as well as the South Dakota Class, which used the earlier Mk6 16"/45 caliber guns, loading and reloading could only be accomplished with the breech at a 5 degree angle so that after firing, the barrel would almost invariably have to be moved to the correct position. Although the powder bags and shells were man handled into elevators (I pitty those poor swabbies), virtually the entire loading process was automated. Because of that, the the guns could not be loaded and fired any faster than the machinery was able to function and that served as a built in limit on rate of fire. With all nine of her 16 inch guns firing, and Iowa could have a shell in the air every four or five seconds.

Kestrel4k
03-01-2016, 12:35 AM
Much has been made re: comparing the Iowa class to the Yamato class, but one important aspect is that the Iowa's could reload twice as fast as the Yamato's. That plus the higher velocity of the 16"/50 really gave an edge to the Iowa's.

BTW, thanks MTC for that pic of all those powder charges behind the shell; hadn't seen that demo before. :)

MTC29
03-01-2016, 12:52 AM
Unfortunately, when I took the tour there was no one aboard working as a tour guide who had actually served on an Iowa. The gunnery tour guide had served aboard the USS Newport News, a heavy cruiser with nine 8 inch guns, during the early part of the War in Vietnam. There was nothing about naval gunnery that this man, who had retired as a Senior Chief petty officer, did not know...or at least had a convincing lie for ;)

HB of CJ
03-01-2016, 01:47 AM
Sustained fire vs max rapid fire. Many factors entered into this. Like already said, the physical machinery could only function at one speed? Turret shell and powder handling crew fatigue entered into it also. The powder men got tired.

You certainly did not want the rammer man to get tired and make a big mistake.

Sea state entered into it. Swell conditions. Sometimes the only accuracy solution was to 'fire on the up roll". This took time also. Then during WW2 at Guadalcanal breech and bore fouling became a concern. This slowed things down.

The radar and range finding solutions had to jive. If not, it took time to reach the proper solution. Less so later in WW2. Under ideal initial conditions, faster shooting was possible. Real life was about one round per minute per tube.

We do not know for sure how fast the Yamato and her sister ship could shoot. Probably about the same in real time? Slower? Once every 90 seconds? Nobody knows? Perhaps some researchers may know. Or perhaps some gamers?

All ancient history. It is so cool to be able to tour that magnificent USS Iowa. The USS Missouri belongs at anchor as a still commissioned USN warship. Only anchored in Tokyo bay. Might be a better reminder to many people world wide?

irishsteve
03-01-2016, 09:46 AM
Ships that don't get a lot of press that you can still visit,USS Alabama,WW2,USS Olympia,Spanish-American,USS Texas WW1-WW2.You can go in the gun turret on most.

Herrmann
03-01-2016, 09:50 AM
OK swabbies! On Dec 7, 1941 one ship was under way . The USS Helm. A Gridly-class destroyer. (See it on line.) It shot down two Jap planes and a small sub. It was the only ship to engage the enemy. I HAVE THE SHIP'S BELL !!!!

SDTkeld
03-01-2016, 10:00 AM
OK swabbies! On Dec 7, 1941 one ship was under way . The USS Helm. A Gridly-class destroyer. (See it on line.) It shot down two Jap planes and a small sub. It was the only ship to engage the enemy. I HAVE THE SHIP'S BELL !!!!

Pretty cool. How were you able to acquire it?

DJEinConcord
03-01-2016, 10:04 AM
Wow. MTC's pics show the Iowa cleaned up nice.

I took several photos of her in 2012. She had just come from the mothball fleet on her way to Long Beach. Last couple of photos show the turrets.

What is over looked when talking about the massive firepower is the fire control systems used over the years. Used analog computers in conjunction with radar to adjust elevation, windage and shell speed.

<iframe src="http://s101.photobucket.com/user/DJEinConcord/embed/slideshow/USS%20Iowa%20in%20Richmond%20CA" height="360" width="480"></iframe>

SDTkeld
03-01-2016, 10:13 AM
Speaking of fire control, I am always amazed at footage of battleships firing in high seas and how quickly the gun barrels change elevation as the ship rolls. Amazing how precise they could be with analog fire control.

Ohio Don
03-01-2016, 11:20 AM
On the WWII battle ships 16" guns. How many shells could a single 16" gun fire in combat conditions?

As many shells as they had on board. The max was in the 1200 rounds per ship divided among the turrets with #2 having the most. WW II they figured a barrel life of 290-350 per barrel before a change of liners were required. In the 80s the life had been extended to 1200 to 1500 rounds per barrel depending on the type round fired. With 9 barrels between 3 turrets that equals a whole lot of hurt.

And irishsteve, been on board the USS Alabama. Saw two Iowas at anchor in Norfolk. There is no missing the shape of one.

Son of a Battleship Missouri ( 1948-49 ) sailor.

irishsteve
03-01-2016, 11:48 AM
As many shells as they had on board. The max was in the 1200 rounds per ship divided among the turrets with #2 having the most. WW II they figured a barrel life of 290-350 per barrel before a change of liners were required. In the 80s the life had been extended to 1200 to 1500 rounds per barrel depending on the type round fired. With 9 barrels between 3 turrets that equals a whole lot of hurt.

And irishsteve, been on board the USS Alabama. Saw two Iowas at anchor in Norfolk. There is no missing the shape of one.

Son of a Battleship Missouri ( 1948-49 ) sailor. Have been on the Alabama too.Great ship.Having served on Navy De"s,and a Coast Guard cutter the BB"s are a small city.I live north of San Francisco bay,and the day the Iowa was towed from the moth ball fleet to go under the golden gate I went down,and watched it go by,a long with 50 other old guys!

Kestrel4k
03-01-2016, 11:50 AM
... and don't forget the Mk.23 15-20 kiloton nuclear shells that were adapted/developed for the Iowa's main guns; I can't even imagine what those BB's could do with these.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armament_of_the_Iowa-class_battleship#Ammunition

irishsteve
03-01-2016, 11:56 AM
OK swabbies! On Dec 7, 1941 one ship was under way . The USS Helm. A Gridly-class destroyer. (See it on line.) It shot down two Jap planes and a small sub. It was the only ship to engage the enemy. I HAVE THE SHIP'S BELL !!!! Not the only to engage.The Ward sank a mini sub,and any Coastie will tell you the USCGC Taney was first to return fire.

Prince Humperdink
03-01-2016, 12:11 PM
OK swabbies! On Dec 7, 1941 one ship was under way . The USS Helm. A Gridly-class destroyer. (See it on line.) It shot down two Jap planes and a small sub. It was the only ship to engage the enemy. I HAVE THE SHIP'S BELL !!!!

Wow,that's awesome! Here is the online info so you don't have to look it up :D
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Helm_(DD-388)

Herrmann
03-01-2016, 02:10 PM
Pretty cool. How were you able to acquire it?
In a trade for a gun to a local collector/packrat!

Herrmann
03-01-2016, 02:13 PM
I offered to donate it to the Navy museum inDC but they were not interested.

SDTkeld
03-01-2016, 03:59 PM
That is definitely a keeper.

twofeets
03-01-2016, 04:16 PM
One day I'll get to see an Iowa. I've been to the USS Massachusetts and that is damn impressive (and still in WWII confuguration, pretty much).

I know that when they modernized the Iowas in the 80's they raided some of the museum ships, where many spare parts had been kept. Does anyone know exactly what sort of stuff they took? I'd really like to know more about the overhaul.

Scout706
03-01-2016, 04:56 PM
Moxie and Lucky Strike green?

jmm
03-01-2016, 05:41 PM
I know that when they modernized the Iowas in the 80's they raided some of the museum ships, where many spare parts had been kept. Does anyone know exactly what sort of stuff they took? I'd really like to know more about the overhaul.

I remember reading an article about the modernization, and seem to recall that propulsion systems components were taken from other ships, everything else was upgraded rather than repaired.
I don't remember if the main guns were re-barreled, I think they were updated for added capability projectiles.

2761377
03-01-2016, 06:44 PM
OK swabbies! On Dec 7, 1941 one ship was under way . The USS Helm. A Gridly-class destroyer. (See it on line.) It shot down two Jap planes and a small sub. It was the only ship to engage the enemy. I HAVE THE SHIP'S BELL !!!!


no. you're incorrect. U.S.S. Ward participated in combat operations that morning. and sank a midget sub.

https://pearlharboroahu.com/uss-ward-destroyer-at-pearl-harbor/

2761377
03-01-2016, 06:48 PM
additionally, U.S.S. Case, DD370 a Porter class ship engaged the Japanese with .50 cal fire.

my grandfather served in her and manned one of said .50 cals.

Scout706
03-01-2016, 06:59 PM
Going to the North Carolina (BB-55) later this month.

Headspace
03-01-2016, 07:19 PM
Does anyone know if turret 2 on the iowa was fully repaired or just sealed up after the turret explosion in 1989? There has been rumor and speculation about both. Never got a true answer.

BB-59 USS Massachusetts right in my back yard. Been there 1/2 dozen times over the years and always find something i hadn't seen before. Hear her sister ship the Alabama is in better shape. Quite a museum in Fall River at Battleship Cove !

Headspace
03-01-2016, 07:24 PM
The 4 Iowa class battleships are amazing and truly spanned the test of time into the modern navy. The following class of Montana's would have been monsters. 12-16" 50's but, the war ended before they were even close to being complete.

NavalAir
03-01-2016, 07:28 PM
The USS Alabama is unique among the museum ships that have 16 inch gun turrets. It is the only one where you can get inside the barbette. They used a plasma torch to cut an opening through the (16 inch) armor plate. Uncut, the only way to enter was a small scuttle hatch at the very bottom of the barbette. It is amazing to see the shell rooms and hoists. The gun crews would use a small windlass to move the 2000 pound shells from storage to the hoists. Imagine doing that in a heavy sea state!

You can also tour the control room inside the turret. Very cool...

And to the question about the Iowa, the turret was cosmetically repaired, but not returned to operational status.

MTC29
03-01-2016, 07:32 PM
Does anyone know if turret 2 on the iowa was fully repaired or just sealed up after the turret explosion in 1989? There has been rumor and speculation about both. Never got a true answer.



It was sealed off as memorial and never put back into operation, and the ship was decommissioned about 18 months after the explosion. This is the plaque dedicated to those who lost their lives in Turret 2:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v219/MTC29/USS%20Iowa/100_2245_zpsc1e287c5.jpg

T38Carbine
03-01-2016, 07:39 PM
I have been on both the USS Alabama and USS North Carolina...very impressive. I have to admit the Vought OS2U Kingfisher was a highlight for me!!

kikokat
03-01-2016, 07:41 PM
Great information on these awesome ships. Thanks to all you who contributed.
I've toured the New Jersey when it was still active. Will catch the Iowa next time I'm in Southern CA.

SDTkeld
03-01-2016, 07:44 PM
I believe there is a plaque on one of the AA mounts on the Alabama where Bob Feller was stationed.

Headspace
03-01-2016, 07:47 PM
It was sealed off as memorial and never put back into operation, and the ship was decommissioned about 18 months after the explosion. This is the plaque dedicated to those who lost their lives in Turret 2:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v219/MTC29/USS%20Iowa/100_2245_zpsc1e287c5.jpg

Thanks
Guys!!!

pmclaine
03-01-2016, 07:55 PM
The USS Alabama is unique among the museum ships that have 16 inch gun turrets. It is the only one where you can get inside the barbette. They used a plasma torch to cut an opening through the (16 inch) armor plate. Uncut, the only way to enter was a small scuttle hatch at the very bottom of the barbette. It is amazing to see the shell rooms and hoists. The gun crews would use a small windlass to move the 2000 pound shells from storage to the hoists. Imagine doing that in a heavy sea state!

You can also tour the control room inside the turret. Very cool...

And to the question about the Iowa, the turret was cosmetically repaired, but not returned to operational status.

Climbing inside the gun tureet on the Massachusetts is doabale. Ive also been through all stories of the turret with shells lining the walls, cranes over head.

Amazing homes the sailors lived in.

Engineer78
03-01-2016, 08:15 PM
With all that powder for one shot I could shoot my BP pistol and musket for eternity. Just need to find an equivilant amount of lead. Leave it to the damn navy guys to waste all that good powder on just one shot.

GO ARMY BEAT NAVY......eventually

jmm
03-01-2016, 11:08 PM
I have been on both the USS Alabama and USS North Carolina...very impressive. I have to admit the Vought OS2U Kingfisher was a highlight for me!!

Saw the North Carolina back in 1981.
If I recall correctly, the Kingfisher was added after I was there. I'm sure I would remember it, it was always one of my favorite planes. :GS:

CharlieEcho
03-02-2016, 09:58 AM
2010 was the first time we were able to enter the turret on the USS Alabama, and we did have to enter through a small hatch at the back. I was surprised at how little room there was. The reason for the limited photo at the bottom. In fact they were still deciding how to display the turret inside.

The USS Drum is at the sight,as well as the museum with many exhibits and displays both indoors and out. Replica of the CSS Hunley as well. If we get close to Mobile, we're visiting the museum at Memorial Park.

http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o310/CharlieEcho1/25Mack_zpsjrmidsk6.jpg (http://s123.photobucket.com/user/CharlieEcho1/media/25Mack_zpsjrmidsk6.jpg.html)

http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o310/CharlieEcho1/42USSDRM_zpsifgsfbk7.jpg (http://s123.photobucket.com/user/CharlieEcho1/media/42USSDRM_zpsifgsfbk7.jpg.html)

http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o310/CharlieEcho1/10Alabama_zpslqumtvoz.jpg (http://s123.photobucket.com/user/CharlieEcho1/media/10Alabama_zpslqumtvoz.jpg.html)

CalvaryCop
03-02-2016, 10:34 AM
Back in the early 50's I was under the keel of the BB NJ when she was in drydock. a strange view indeed.

Twinson
03-02-2016, 11:05 AM
On Deck..
http://i439.photobucket.com/albums/qq119/TwinsonFarm/140_zpspm3bgxqc.jpg

twofeets
03-02-2016, 11:15 AM
Those museum ships always get me melancholy. It's great that they are preserved for future generations, but sad that they just sit at anchor now, their mighty guns silent. Kinda makes you want to just start 'em up and take 'em for a spin. Maybe shell an uninhabited island or two for fun.

Heavy Junk Operator
03-02-2016, 11:45 AM
How do you shoot down a sub?

Kansas Poster
03-02-2016, 12:00 PM
Some more USS Missouri pictures.

http://i357.photobucket.com/albums/oo12/triestebaby/S4021306.jpg

http://i357.photobucket.com/albums/oo12/triestebaby/S4021346.jpg

And a sub.

http://i357.photobucket.com/albums/oo12/triestebaby/S4021295.jpg

CharlieEcho
03-02-2016, 12:48 PM
Those museum ships always get me melancholy. It's great that they are preserved for future generations, but sad that they just sit at anchor now, their mighty guns silent. Kinda makes you want to just start 'em up and take 'em for a spin. Maybe shell an uninhabited island or two for fun.

Those large ships always fascinated me growing up. Still do. Almost a city within themselves. I don't have many pictures of the USS North Carolina, but recall the ships computer being the size of a room. The last time I visited the USS Alabama we were able to visit the propulsion area and see the gear drives.

How do you shoot down a sub?

I believe you would have to be submerged to shoot "down" a sub.:p

CalvaryCop
03-02-2016, 05:07 PM
It sure is a strange experience to be on board naval ships in museums or in Mothballs after you have been on board them when they were commissioned and in active service and alive with daily activity.

NavalAir
03-02-2016, 05:43 PM
Those museum ships always get me melancholy. It's great that they are preserved for future generations, but sad that they just sit at anchor now, their mighty guns silent. Kinda makes you want to just start 'em up and take 'em for a spin. Maybe shell an uninhabited island or two for fun.

Watch the end of the movie "Battleship". They take the Missouri out of Pearl Harbor with a group of old guys (us) to fight the alien invaders.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7XbH3iz734

Ohio Don
03-02-2016, 06:35 PM
It sure is a strange experience to be on board naval ships in museums or in Mothballs after you have been on board them when they were commissioned and in active service and alive with daily activity.What is sadder is that so many of the great ships have been cut up for scrap and sold to the same people they fought during WW II. An example is the USS Hancock ( CV-19 ) which I visited in the summer of 1966 while in Japan.

Ohio Don
03-02-2016, 06:52 PM
I have been on both the USS Alabama and USS North Carolina...very impressive. I have to admit the Vought OS2U Kingfisher was a highlight for me!!Dad was on the Missouri when they flew them off for the last time.

scgto
03-02-2016, 06:54 PM
Toured the USS Missouri, North Carolina & Texas. Great respect for all those who currently serve and have served.

Ohio Don
03-02-2016, 07:17 PM
2010 was the first time we were able to enter the turret on the USS Alabama, and we did have to enter through a small hatch at the back. I was surprised at how little room there was. The reason for the limited photo at the bottom. In fact they were still deciding how to display the turret inside.

The USS Drum is at the sight,as well as the museum with many exhibits and displays both indoors and out. Replica of the CSS Hunley as well. If we get close to Mobile, we're visiting the museum at Memorial Park.

http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o310/CharlieEcho1/25Mack_zpsjrmidsk6.jpg (http://s123.photobucket.com/user/CharlieEcho1/media/25Mack_zpsjrmidsk6.jpg.html)

http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o310/CharlieEcho1/42USSDRM_zpsifgsfbk7.jpg (http://s123.photobucket.com/user/CharlieEcho1/media/42USSDRM_zpsifgsfbk7.jpg.html)

http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o310/CharlieEcho1/10Alabama_zpslqumtvoz.jpg (http://s123.photobucket.com/user/CharlieEcho1/media/10Alabama_zpslqumtvoz.jpg.html)

When I visited the USS Alabama and the USS Drum, the Drum was still in the water. It was the second sub I had ever gone aboard. The other was the USS Requin which at the time was in Tampa but now is in Pittsburgh. Dad and I rode over to Tampa on Amtrak, walked to the sub, had lunch, and then rode Amtrak back to Miami the same day.

Stewbaby
03-02-2016, 08:44 PM
The USS Olympia was in sad shape when I visited it in 2012...needs donations bad.

Ohio Don
03-02-2016, 09:21 PM
The USS Olympia was in sad shape when I visited it in 2012...needs donations bad.
It has always seemed to be in sad condition. There never seems to be enough money to do a correct repair to stop the damage done from previous improvised repairs. When we saw it in the 90s the hull was patched patches to the point they were afraid that it might sink. I have the USS Olympia t-shirt along with a USS Estocin t-shirt and a HSL-94 shirt from that visit. She only needs about $10M in work to keep her up.

NavalAir
03-02-2016, 10:52 PM
The USS Olympia was in sad shape when I visited it in 2012...needs donations bad.

I grew up in Philly, and toured the Olympia in the 60s and 70s, when she wasn't in quite as bad shape as she is now. She isn't a battleship, but a protected cruiser. Nonetheless, as the only remaining representative of that class, she is worthy of saving.

TheJoker
03-03-2016, 08:04 PM
I visit the Alabama once a year. Part of my Talladega Speedway, CMP South Store, Mobil Battleship Park, Pensacola Naval Aviation Museum pilgrimage. Battleship park is a great place to spend the day for someone that loves history.

http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb240/TheJoker666_2007/BS0423200183SunSet_zps7wzeuqyg.jpg

http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb240/TheJoker666_2007/USSAlabama-2013-20Drum_zpse1qkbq88.jpg

I think I can sink the Carnival Triumph from here!

http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb240/TheJoker666_2007/USSAlabama-2013-21DrumShootCarnTriumph_zpscri9he2n.jpg

http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb240/TheJoker666_2007/USSAlabama-2013-18Tuskegee_zpsgp4k4m8p.jpg

http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb240/TheJoker666_2007/USSAlabama-2013-05_zpslaredeb8.jpg

I'm a pretty lucky fella to have a girl that'll let you drag her 'round a battleship all day!

http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb240/TheJoker666_2007/USSAlabama-2013-02KathF4Phantom_zpshqjv6uxx.jpg

My Uncle Lloyd served in the Navy as Chief Mechanic for the Vought OS2U Kingfisher.