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Finch
05-20-2012, 05:54 PM
I've been working on this for a bit but I am good and stumped.

My 1917 Eddystone has some trouble ejecting reloads. When i first tired the same reloads I use for practice in my Garand( a very light 168 A-max over 45 grains of 4895) a couple of times i had to use a cleaning rod to even get the round out.

Some folks suggested it my brass maybe too long so I trimmed it down from 2.484 to 2.480 then to 2.475 this does seem to help and the case can leave the chamber with some extra force but it still doesn't seem right a I am a little scared to go much lower.

Furthermore, Some measuring of spent shells suggests the reloads expand to 2.478ish while factory HXP expand to 2.485+ so it seems to me either i don't understand something or I am chasing the wrong answer.

Some other interesting variables....

In my "garand practice rounds" i had the same load as above in an R-P case that got mixed in that seemed to eject fine.

I full length resize howevre i have bought a neck sizer and will try that.

I set the bullet to the COAL as measured with my hornday COAL tool. However the "practice rounds" are shorter.

No variation between years of of HXP and i've tried several from 68-82.

No signs of over pressure. I have tried 45 and 46 grains of 4895.

Early on it tried "scrubbing the chamber" good with a copper chamber brush which didn't seem to help. What i can see of the chamber appears clear.

Rifle Passes field headspace.

Rifle is an April 1918 reviver with an 11-18 Remington 5 grove barrel so it's likely barreled early in its life. Has a stamp on one ear indicating it was from a VFW post. Boar is beautiful and clear.

a quick measurement of the rounds from today's trip suggests the reloaded cases are no wider at the base neck or shoulders than the factory HXP rounds.

I can provide anyother measurements you might find useful :)

Mad_Gorilla
05-20-2012, 06:20 PM
I've been working on this for a bit but I am good and stumped.

My 1917 Eddystone has some trouble ejecting reloads. When i first tired the same reloads I use for practice in my Garand( a very light 168 A-max over 45 grains of 4895) a couple of times i had to use a cleaning rod to even get the round out.

Some folks suggested it my brass maybe too long so I trimmed it down from 2.484 to 2.480 then to 2.475 this does seem to help and the case can leave the chamber with some extra force but it still doesn't seem right a I am a little scared to go much lower.

Furthermore, Some measuring of spent shells suggests the reloads expand to 2.478ish while factory HXP expand to 2.485+ so it seems to me either i don't understand something or I am chasing the wrong answer.

Some other interesting variables....

In my "garand practice rounds" i had the same load as above in an R-P case that got mixed in that seemed to eject fine.

I full length resize howevre i have bought a neck sizer and will try that.

I set the bullet to the COAL as measured with my hornday COAL tool. However the "practice rounds" are shorter.

No variation between years of of HXP and i've tried several from 68-82.

No signs of over pressure. I have tried 45 and 46 grains of 4895.

Early on it tried "scrubbing the chamber" good with a copper chamber brush which didn't seem to help. What i can see of the chamber appears clear.

Rifle Passes field headspace.

Rifle is an April 1918 reviver with an 11-18 Remington 5 grove barrel so it's likely barreled early in its life. Has a stamp on one ear indicating it was from a VFW post. Boar is beautiful and clear.

a quick measurement of the rounds from today's trip suggests the reloaded cases are no wider at the base neck or shoulders than the factory HXP rounds.

I can provide anyother measurements you might find useful :)


Its been a lot of years since I played with a '17 Enfield. Great old rifles.

First thing I would do (and have always done with military rifles) is get some Cerrosafe and make a chamber cast so you can actually measure dimensions and get a good visual of the surfaces in the chamber. A properly done cast will show every little imperfection in the chamber.

Have any of the problems with this involved a hard to lift bolt handle? If yes, check to see if you have any bolt locking lug set back. I've encountered that on a number of old military bolt rifles, mostly Mausers, but it can happen on any of them.

Is this happening with any other factory rounds besides the HXP, or is it strictly with reloads?

You need to eliminate the rifle itself first, if possible, as the source of the problem.

Finch
05-20-2012, 06:52 PM
Thanks for the response. I love 1917's myself :)

The trouble, as least with the shorter cases, is on just the last bit of the upswing of the handle.

I'll take a picture of the bolt it looks fine to me :)

Cerrosafe might be pushing my skill set a bit but it sounds pretty straight forward and it would be usefull to see what it looks like in there.

Finch
05-20-2012, 07:10 PM
Here are the lugs



ETA holy huge pictures....

here's links instead
http://garandthumb.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/20120520-200353.jpg (http://forums.thecmp.org/view-source:http://garandthumb.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/20120520-200353.jpg)
http://garandthumb.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/20120520-200451.jpg (http://forums.thecmp.org/view-source:http://garandthumb.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/20120520-200451.jpg)

Mad_Gorilla
05-20-2012, 07:20 PM
Thanks for the response. I love 1917's myself :)

The trouble, as least with the shorter cases, is on just the last bit of the upswing of the handle.

I'll take a picture of the bolt it looks fine to me :)

Cerrosafe might be pushing my skill set a bit but it sounds pretty straight forward and it would be usefull to see what it looks like in there.

Nah! Cerrosafe is easy. Just follow the directions to the letter. When you plug the bore, just make sure you only get a half inch or so of the rifling. It makes it easier to tap it out. Also, be careful that you don't get it into the locking lug cuts in the receiver or you won't get it out without heating up the action to the melting point of the Cerrosafe. Not as hard as it all sounds. The timing from casting to taking measurements needs to be precise so you get accurate measurements. The stuff is reusable, so don't throw it out after just one use! I bought one ingot from Midway several years ago, and have used it about a dozen times so far.

Might be a good idea to have a smith check the locking lug area but it doesn't sound like that is your problem from your description.

Finch
05-21-2012, 08:15 AM
i think i'll give it a try.

I may also brave some non-HXP factory loads and see what happens.

just thinking out loud i wonder if there is some buildup or something otherwise out of spec in the throat or neck area.

ceresco
05-21-2012, 08:39 AM
Not clear, but it sounds like your problem is initial extraction. This is almost certainly related to your cases or chamber but a cleaning of the bolt recesses and locking lugs should be done to eliminate those posibilities. Also clean the camming surfaces at the rear of the bolt and receiver and lube with grease. If factory ammo such as HXP extracts easily I would suspect your cases are not being resized adequately. Turn your FL die down to get hard contact wirh the shell holder and carefully size a few cases for testing. Any pitting or residue in the chamber could be the problem, but it would affect both handloads and factory ammo. You can use a tight patch with lapping compound and a hand drill to clean and polish the chamber--just stay out of the rifling. Case length and most of the other things mentioned would not be expected to cause extraction problems. Cerosafe might reveal a chamber wall problem but a careful examination of fired cases is probably just as good in this case. Good Shooting....

Finch
05-21-2012, 09:09 AM
you make a good point with the size. At some point i did raise my die up a bit as caming it really hard seemed excessive. Maybe I went too far like a noob.

Finch
05-21-2012, 09:26 AM
yep I bet you are right... There is a gap.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/s720x720/536510_10150965602819669_511289668_11728475_134518 087_n.jpg

Mad_Gorilla
05-21-2012, 10:22 AM
you make a good point with the size. At some point i did raise my die up a bit as caming it really hard seemed excessive. Maybe I went too far like a noob.


Backing off the sizer like that would definitely create an excessive headspace condition by not having the shoulder set back enough on sizing. That should be pretty obvious though when you try to chamber a round because you will literally resize the shoulder as you turn the bolt down to battery.

If the case is properly sized (I include properly trimmed in this as well), the bolt should close with minimal pressure. Even if you are neck sizing only, you still have to bump that shoulder back the tiniest bit so you don't end up not being able to close the bolt completely.

The chamber cast, in addition to showing the condition of it, will let you see exactly how long the chamber is from breech face to datum line, and you can compare that to your brass. Another purchase that will greatly help in setting your sizing die properly is the Hornady Headspace Gauge set. It is fairly inexpensive and simple to use, and makes setting the sizer dead bang simple.

ceresco
05-21-2012, 10:45 AM
I have never found a way to use cerrosafe that allows you to get a usable "bolt face to shoulder" sample. It generally is used for the front 80% of the chamber to check diameters or identify unknown chambers. Pouring it in ftom the muzzle in an attempt to cast the entire chamber from the bolt face forward will produce an awful mess. A good examination of a fully obturated (hi pressure round) is generally superior to any cerrosafe casting for "base to shoulder" measurement. Good Shooting......

Finch
05-21-2012, 11:06 AM
eww i think your right about the shoulders. while i can't get a good measurement without that fancy Hornady head space tool. the shoulder on the reloaded case seems to be just the tiniest bit taller than the once fired HXP case. As its cock on close and has once heck of a cam action I never noticed a chambering problem

I use the same die for my T3 and don't have any problems however I use R-P brass so the problem makes sense as RP is a bit thinner or at least it makes sense to me. in the case of the garand ... i've never had to manually remove a case the gas does that for me. I'm probaly lucky it hasn't fired out of battery.

LazyEngineer
05-21-2012, 01:49 PM
In my experience, there has been no correlation with oversized brass and difficulty of extraction - they all resize themselves upon the firing sequence. I would expect you to be having a hard time chambering, based on the reloader photo. But not necessarily a hard time extracting.

This may sound strange, but it might be a case of too mild pressure. As I understand it (and this is pretty off the cuff), brass tends to swell upon firing, and then spring back - often to a very slightly smaller size than the chamber, it would seem. But if your load is too light, this could be a case of it swelling, but not enough heat and energy for the spring-back. I know that sounds odd - but something to think about.

[edit to add]: OK, I didn't say that very well. try again - when hot (Such as firing), metal (especially brass) will expand. This is thermal expansion, and pressure has nothing to do with it. Then, when it cools down, it will of course shrink. Since the chamber dimension is fixed, and the pressure forces the brass to take that size and shape, this basically means that the hotter the temperature, the smaller the size the brass will shrink down to upon cooling. In a rifle, the steel chamber sucks away the heat, providing cooling fast enough for that shrinkage to occur before extracting, and making extraction easier. Which is one reason why bolt action rifles I suspect tend to have easier extraction than autos (ever notice how cool brass is out of a bolt action, compared to how hot it is in a - semi-auto?). That extra half a second makes all the difference for the barrel to suck the heat out of the brass - and shrink it so it'll pop right out. But, if you have a cool (mild) load. The brass won't shrink as much from the fixed (chamber dimension) size upon that fast cooling portion of the life cycle. So it will be harder to extract.

To digress even further, I suspect steel has a lower thermal expansion than brass (or maybe just doesn't get as hot, since less thermally conductive). Which is why it's a ********** to extract. Because the pressure resizes it to chamber dimensions, but there's not enough thermal contraction upon cooling (compared to brass), for it to pop out just as easy. That's my theory at least.

Also, obviously there's a limit. Once you get the heat and pressure high enough with an overloaded round, where the brass starts to really flow, then things really stick; and the contraction isn't enough to compensate for that.



As others suggest, I'd also suggest making sure your lugs, chamber, etc, are nice and clean. Take a peak with a light - 1917's can have rough barrels, and maybe chambers too. So it might just be a rough chamber (though if that were it, you'd think factory ammo would be having the same problem).

So my Wild Assed guess - you have a light load that's not springing back the brass, and a rough chamber, that's gripping the swelled brass.

DJEinConcord
05-21-2012, 02:29 PM
yep I bet you are right... There is a gap.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/s720x720/536510_10150965602819669_511289668_11728475_134518 087_n.jpg


Ha ha.

I am laughing with you not at you!

I had to pull 20 bullets from fresh reloads that would not chamber for the very same reason on Saturday. I have to remeber to check the first few rounds of a new reload to see if they will chamber.

Pulling bullets is as much fun as case prepping.

Finch
05-21-2012, 02:58 PM
they are pretty weak loads.. especially the "practice rounds" for my garand (45 grains of 4895) your theory makes sense as to why the shorter rounds i made extract "better" as i also bumped those up to 46 grains... still a bit light. So i didn't do a good job eliminating variables.

That would also explain the lack of issue in my t3 with the same dies as those are shoulder pounding hot.

So much science :)

thanks for everones help i have many things to try out

Finch
05-21-2012, 06:59 PM
Well fellas it seems it seems the gap between the die and the shell holder was the problem. I loaded 2 empty deprimed cases one that I had sized with the gap and one with it really cranked down. The gap round was just a bit harder to feed on the last bit of pushing the bolt down and was noticeably harder to eject. The new round with the die properly cranked down fed and ejected fine.

I've loaded some up and il try them this weekend but I feel pretty good that this was the problem.

Thanks to everone for taking the time to answer!

Mad_Gorilla
05-22-2012, 05:13 AM
Well fellas it seems it seems the gap between the die and the shell holder was the problem. I loaded 2 empty deprimed cases one that I had sized with the gap and one with it really cranked down. The gap round was just a bit harder to feed on the last bit of pushing the bolt down and was noticeably harder to eject. The new round with the die properly cranked down fed and ejected fine.

I've loaded some up and il try them this weekend but I feel pretty good that this was the problem.

Thanks to everone for taking the time to answer!

Glad you figured out the problem. Just don't go too far the other way and set the shoulder too far back. That quickly leads to weakened case walls at the case head/body junction and head separations. That Hornady headspace gauge is the easiest and quickest way to set up the sizer properly. Money well spent.

Finch
05-22-2012, 06:49 AM
Glad you figured out the problem. Just don't go too far the other way and set the shoulder too far back. That quickly leads to weakened case walls at the case head/body junction and head separations. That Hornady headspace gauge is the easiest and quickest way to set up the sizer properly. Money well spent.

Ordered one yesterday thanks!