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capone
08-07-2012, 11:14 PM
I read that remington made some of the mosin nagants for russia. And some never made it to them . Does anyone know anything about these? I looked them up in a gun value book, and they were not worth anymore than the russian ones?? Any info???

thedoveshooter
08-07-2012, 11:26 PM
They made them, and a lot of them made it to Russia. That was a contract Remington had with Russia before we got involved in WW1. They are worth more. Some are in pristine condition too and are probably some of the best Mosin Nagants made, except for maybe the Finnish M39.

Google for more info.

capone
08-07-2012, 11:30 PM
The one i got sent a pic of looks rough. And he wants $500 for it. I paid last year $69.99 for round receiver and $79.99 for hex . Both were the rebuilt ones from aims.

Calfed
08-07-2012, 11:41 PM
I've got a Remington and a New England Westinghouse made Mosin Nagant.

I think they fetch more than your run-of-the-mill Mosins.

But remember, they are M91, not 91/30's...longer barrel, etc.

Rick the Librarian
08-07-2012, 11:55 PM
The top of the line are those Remington and Westinghouse (they made M91s for the Czar as well) M1891s that are marked with U.S. proof stamps!

IMHO, a mismatched rifle, even with a Remington receiver is notworth $500.

m1garand1055
08-08-2012, 06:06 AM
I read that remington made some of the mosin nagants for russia. And some never made it to them . Does anyone know anything about these? I looked them up in a gun value book, and they were not worth anymore than the russian ones?? Any info???
Alot of the Remington and Westinghouse Mosin Nagants never made it out of our Country.The Russians Reneged on the Contract. Infact if I recall, I think Remington almost went bankrupt over it, when they got stuck with them.Our Gov. belled Remington out by Purchasing them .I read where our Gov. used them for training purpose's during alot of our Troops Basic Training and alot of them were used for Guard duty State side during WWI.I have seen pics of our Soldiers using them.The rear Sights are set up a little different on them compared to a 91/30. Everytime I have ever seen one around this area , they always go for $300 or better depending on condition and if it is full Military. Believe it or not , a few of them got sold off to the Civilian population during the early 1900's and you'll see a bunch of them Sporterized into Deer hunting Rifles.I've come across a few of them here in Pa like that and it's a shame because it is part of Military History.:)

Rick the Librarian
08-08-2012, 06:50 AM
As I recall, a number were sold through the DCM in the 1920s but were not popular.

Allen Humphrey
08-08-2012, 08:15 AM
There is a Remington Nagant in my family. It was purchased and used by my great grandfather here in the pacific NW for deer and elk hunting until his passing in the 50's. It is in the keeping of anther family member so I don't have photos. It is sporterized but I don't know if he purchased it that way or converted it after purchase. I was told he aquired it in the 1920s. Given his financial standing at the time it must have been very inexpensive or he traded for it.

capone
08-08-2012, 08:34 AM
Yes I did not think $500 was a good price. He had a Mauser broomhandle he wanted to sel also but he wanted $900 for it. It had a dent in side and looked kinda rough. $900. I looked it up and that model in his condition was worth around $400-$500. He is a dreamer. He inherited the guns and knows nothing about them.

Rick the Librarian
08-08-2012, 08:48 AM
Or, as a friend of mine once said, "He must really like the guns, because, at that price, he's going to have them for a long time". :D

chuckindenver
08-08-2012, 08:48 AM
i have had and sold a few Remington 1891 Nagants...the last one i sold with bayonet and sling on GB, sold for 950.00 i started the auction at 9.99 and let the experts figure out how much it was worth, it was 70% finish, nice bore ect.
my keeper is 90% with a nice walnut stock, perfect bore, and out shoots most of my US bolt guns..
over all fit and finish of the U.S. made nagants is much better then the Russian made rifles.
they are not rare, but are hard to find in original nice shape, with matching bolts ect.
most of the U.S. made 1891s were used by the U.S. military for training ect.
make sure its still in the Russian cal, and not converted to 30-06

Calif-Steve
08-08-2012, 08:51 AM
The Russians liked them alot. Contract ended with Russian Revolution. The US Army took many and used them in Basic Training. Also equipped the Army which occupied a Russian port in late 1918. The DCM sold them in the 1920's for very little money, Army basically got rid of them. Many cut up and sporterized. Hard to find in new condition anymore. Sedgley converted many into .30-'06 and it was a bad idea. They are around and are dangerous, avoid them.

Polaris
08-08-2012, 10:57 PM
I was not aware that the US army purchased or took posession of any but it wouldn't surprise me. The Germans, Austro-Hungarians and Finns made good use of captured mosins in both wars. I know production and shipping was halted during or after the russian revolution. Have seen a reproduction 1920 Sears and Roebuck catalog that listed american made Russian m91s for sale at a very good price in new condition. Did not specify Rem or N.E.W. They probably sold both. According to my old Lyman manual Rem and Win produced factory hunting ammo for them until around WWII
You will find them fairly frequently at gunshows here. Going price for a well worn original non-sporterized one seems to be south of $500. A really nice one will fetch more but I haven't seen one yet.

You will also find Finnish capture ones "SA" marked as well as other Finnish variants built on Rem receivers often showing lots of use and replaced parts and/or arsenal repairs. They command lower prices but IMO are more interesting. These seem to be the most common which makes sense as most of them shipped would have ended up at ports near Finland during the first war only to be captured by the Finns later.

I've also encountered (and own a couple) of Refurb Soviet 91-30s that have some rem parts the crafty russkies cannibalized from the junk pile.

Rick the Librarian
08-09-2012, 07:47 AM
Bruce Canfield's book on U.S. weapons of World War I is a favorite of mine, and details many of these little-known weapons of the Great War, including the M1891. Highly recommended!

Calfed
08-09-2012, 06:41 PM
You will also find Finnish capture ones "SA" marked as well as other Finnish variants built on Rem receivers often showing lots of use and replaced parts and/or arsenal repairs.

Yep! My N.E.W. is SA marked and came with an interesting Finnish Arsenal tag.

.22shooter
08-09-2012, 08:56 PM
make sure its still in the Russian cal, and not converted to 30-06

Are the .30 caliber rifles the work of bubba? Or did the military do that?

what problems do they have?

Bill

.22shooter
08-09-2012, 09:00 PM
The Mosins, save the Finns, sure are ugly generally IMO inaccurate rifles but there is something intriguing about them...especially things like this.

I am no expert by any means but I am aware that New England Westinghouse was also contracted to make mosins...probably M91s? Either way some of them did make it to Russia and some didn't and found their way into the U.S. military's hands.

They are fairly sought after and valued by Mosin collectors. In good condition they have crisp marking and better finishes compared to the Soviet rifles. Its a nice addition to a collection no doubt.

There was one on gunbroker recently that I thought was really neat. It was a Finnish captured Soviet M91 made in the United States! Now thats a piece of history!

Bill

Rick the Librarian
08-09-2012, 09:56 PM
Yes, N.E.W. made quite a few and, as you said, some of them made it to Russia, others didn't. Again, consult Canfield's book on U.S. WWI weapons.

Calfed
08-09-2012, 11:15 PM
Ah, what the hell..

http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s194/Calfed/WestinghouseMosin002a-1.jpg
http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s194/Calfed/WestinghouseMosin002.jpg
http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s194/Calfed/WestinghouseMosin006-1.jpg

.22shooter
08-10-2012, 05:40 AM
Ah, what the hell..

http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s194/Calfed/WestinghouseMosin002a-1.jpg
http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s194/Calfed/WestinghouseMosin002.jpg
http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s194/Calfed/WestinghouseMosin006-1.jpg

Still in cosmo?

ken792
08-10-2012, 07:39 AM
Still in cosmo?

Nope, a Finn used one that was probably put back into grease.

FGD135
08-12-2012, 10:46 AM
Are the .30 caliber rifles the work of bubba? Or did the military do that?

what problems do they have?

Bill

About 300,000 or more Remington and New England Westinghouse Mosin rifles were purchased by the US in 1917-18 when the contracts with the Russians were canceled and shipments embargoed by the US government after the Bolshevik revolution. Some were used as training rifles, or to arm US National Guard units that had not been nationalized for active duty. As an example, the Alaska National Guard and the Colorado National Guard turned in their 1903s for Mosins until the end of the war, when the Mosins were recalled and 1903s reissued in 1919.
Others were sent to Russia to arm the Czech Legion thru Vladivostok (50,000). The MN rifles used by the Polar Bears in Murmansk were already in England awaiting shipment to Russia when the embargo began. The remainder were sold as surplus after the war.

The only .30-06 MN conversions that have ever been documented were done by Bannerman's of New York in the 1920s.
No .30-06 conversions by Sedgley or even a home gunsmith have ever been documented in 70 years of American Rifleman. I know, I looked.

Bannerman conversion MN rifles had the barrels removed, 2 threads cut, and then were rechambered for .30-06, reshouldered, etc., thus avoiding an oversized unsupported chamber, which would've happened if a .30-06 reamer was run into an unmodified 7.62x54r chamber.
Mosin bolt heads and the magazines were modified for the rimless .30-06 cartridge.

Bannerman converted Mosins are always made from either Remington or New England Westinghouse rifles, (with hex receivers, of course) and will be stamped "CAL .30-06" on the left side of the knoxform.
The chamber is visibly shortened, which should be the most distinguishing feature on quick examination. Original roll markings are partially removed because of the chamber mods, i.e., no SN will show on the shortened chamber.

Two versions of the conversions were sold by Bannerman's--one is a shortened carbine type made to resemble a Krag sporter, with a cut down military stock, single barrel band, no handguard, a 23" barrel, 1903 blade front sight, the original MN ladder rear sight, and a bent bolt handle--just the original short MN handle bent down.
The other less common version is a full stocked infantry rifle with just the chamber bolt and magazine modifications. Obviously, with the chamber cut back, the OAL is slightly shortened from the original.
Bannerman's rifles do not have matching numbers.

Although the rifles are properly chambered and headspaced for .30-06, shortening the knoxform reduces the diameter of the barrel in the chamber area, which could reduce it's strength. (That seems to be a common criticism). Once again, in 70 years of AR records, there are no documented first hand accounts of one blowing up. In fact, just the opposite, there is at least one account of repeated use of .30-06 service ammo without incident.
("America's Russian Fascist Rifles" American Rifleman, July 1992, page 42.)
The only disparaging remarks about the "dangers" of this conversion seems to be from gun writers espousing opinions not apparently based on any facts.
Hope this helps.

chuckindenver
08-12-2012, 11:12 AM
great info...thanks for sharing...

Calif-Steve
08-12-2012, 12:21 PM
Read this: Due to the desperate shortage of arms and the shortcomings of a still-developing domestic industry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_history,_1892%E2%80%931917#Accelerated_ind ustrialization), the Russian government ordered 1.5 million M1891 infantry rifles from Remington Arms (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remington_Arms) and another 1.8 million from New England Westinghouse (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westinghouse_Electric_(1886)) in the United States.[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosin%E2%80%93Nagant#cite_note-7.62x54r.net-1) Remington produced 750,000 rifles before production was halted by the 1917 October Revolution (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/October_Revolution). Deliveries to Russia had amounted to 469,951 rifles when the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Brest-Litovsk) ended hostilities between the Central Powers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Powers) and Russia. The remaining 280,000 rifles were purchased by the United States Army (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Army). American and British expeditionary forces of the North Russia Campaign (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Russia_Campaign) were armed with these rifles and sent to Murmansk (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murmansk) and Arkhangelsk (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arkhangelsk) in the late summer of 1918 to prevent the large quantities of munitions delivered for Czarist forces from being captured by the Central Powers. Remaining rifles were used for the training of U.S. Army troops. Some were used to equip U.S. National Guard, SATC, and ROTC units.[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosin%E2%80%93Nagant#cite_note-2) Designated "U.S. Rifle, 7.62mm, Model of 1916",
Somewhere along the line I read that Sedgley did in-house conversions of the M-N into .30-'06, can not find the reference.

ismith
09-01-2012, 12:55 PM
Ah, what the hell..
http://i739.photobucket.com/albums/xx32/madisonvalleywapiti/020-8.jpg
http://i739.photobucket.com/albums/xx32/madisonvalleywapiti/021-8.jpg
http://i739.photobucket.com/albums/xx32/madisonvalleywapiti/024-7.jpg
http://i739.photobucket.com/albums/xx32/madisonvalleywapiti/026-4.jpg
http://i739.photobucket.com/albums/xx32/madisonvalleywapiti/027-6.jpg

Calfed
09-01-2012, 12:59 PM
Pretty nice, Smith.

I might have to dig out my Remmy and take a few pics

Rick the Librarian
09-01-2012, 04:33 PM
Dang - sure like to get one of those!

3gunnah
09-02-2012, 12:57 AM
Two versions of the conversions were sold by Bannerman's--one is a shortened carbine type made to resemble a Krag sporter, with a cut down military stock, single barrel band, no handguard, a 23" barrel, 1903 blade front sight, the original MN ladder rear sight, and a bent bolt handle--just the original short MN handle bent down.


I have 1 of these rifles. It shoots really great. But the front sight needs to be way shorter. And it already has the smallest blade you can get filed down to a nub. Also the rear sight spring is gone. So the sight just kinda flops around. Anyone know where I can get a spring for original mosin rear sight?

.22shooter
09-02-2012, 10:43 AM
A Finn captured Remington....that is so neat.

You lucky duck!

Bill

Don in SC
09-03-2012, 06:06 PM
Many were commercial conversions by companies like Bannermans. They would remove the barrel and cut off some of the chamber and rethread and cut a new 30-06 chamber. As I under stand it the Mosins is rated for less chamber pressure than the 30-06 cartridge. Not the best idea but the .311 bore most likely never lets the 30-06 develope full pressure anyway. But as stated best bet is to stay safe an not push your luck.

Are the .30 caliber rifles the work of bubba? Or did the military do that?

what problems do they have?

Bill

MajorD
09-04-2012, 01:39 PM
just for a little more info- Remington made three different contract guns for allies in WW one- berthiers for france, mosins for russia and pattern 14's for england.
My brother came into possession of a set of these originally given as a gift to a remington employee of the factory.all 100% new covered in grease with matching serialized bayonets.

Calfed
09-04-2012, 02:25 PM
just for a little more info- Remington made three different contract guns for allies in WW one- berthiers for france, mosins for russia and pattern 14's for england.
My brother came into possession of a set of these originally given as a gift to a remington employee of the factory.all 100% new covered in grease with matching serialized bayonets.

Man, that is cool!!

Post pics if you can pry them away from your brother long enough for a photo session