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View Full Version : Is the Hatcher book of the Garand worth reading?


RuggedTerrain40
08-14-2012, 09:24 PM
??????

Eric

Trooper82
08-14-2012, 09:27 PM
Absolutely!

Wineman
08-14-2012, 09:32 PM
I got it but was somewhat disappointed. It basically restates most of his work in "Hatchers Notebook" There is some different stuff but most is pretty much a rehash and can be found in other sources. Nothing groundbreaking, no real news. We all know it is the best semi-auto rifle ever (with an antiquated loading system and crappy original sights) that anybody had 75 years ago.

Wineman

tmark
08-14-2012, 09:43 PM
Hatcher's book was my first book when I got introduced to the Garand. It is a basic book covering history to disassembly to trouble shooting, etc. It is a basic general book.

I've learned throughout the 32 years since I first got that book and an M1 is that no one book does it all. Each tells something different and additional to know about.

Is it worth reading? Yes! Hatcher has experienced credentials in his field of expertise. I also would recommend Hatcher's Notebook. This is a detailed account of several USGI firearms, ammo, headspacing, and much much more info such as a record of firearms that blew up in the hands of GIs, what damage it did to them, and more importantly, why these rifles malfunctioned.

He did a study on trying to blow up an M1 rifle with a too hot a load comparing it to a Japanese rifle. The results are in favor of the M1.

If you have neither, go to AddALL.com to see if they have them and the prices.

RuggedTerrain40
08-14-2012, 09:47 PM
I also would recommend Hatcher's Notebook. This is a detailed account of several USGI firearms, ammo, headspacing, and much much more info such as a record of firearms that blew up in the hands of GIs, what damage it did to them, and more importantly, why these rifles malfunctioned.

He did a study on trying to blow up an M1 rifle with a too hot a load comparing it to a Japanese rifle. The results are in favor of the M1.

If you have neither, go to AddALL.com to see if they have them and the prices.

Hatcher's Notebook? AddALL.com? What is AddALL.com? Some kind of online used bookstore? I will check it out.

thanks,

Eric

tmark
08-14-2012, 09:49 PM
I sent you a pm to answer your question.

RuggedTerrain40
08-14-2012, 09:57 PM
Did Hatcher ever blow up a Garand?

Eric

crewdoil
08-14-2012, 10:02 PM
i liked it , had a few insites that I did not know. Worth the money to add to my books

missilegeek
08-14-2012, 10:10 PM
....with an antiquated loading system and crappy original sights) that anybody had 75 years ago.


There's one of you in every crowd.

tmark
08-14-2012, 10:19 PM
Did Hatcher ever blow up a Garand?

Eric

He mentioned an experiment that took place to see what would happen if an M1 got too hot a round.

slikwilli420
08-14-2012, 10:19 PM
Aren't m1/m14 sights considered some of the best iron sights ever made?

JoeW2111
08-14-2012, 10:30 PM
Did Hatcher ever blow up a Garand?

Eric

Don't know as Hatcher himself ever blew up a Garand but on page 162 of "Hatchers Book of the Garand", there is a photograph of the results of a deliberate attempt to blow up a Garand. The photo shows the receiver of SA # 422349 after firing a charge of 52.2 grains of powder, which was all the cartridge case would hold.
Parts that were damaged were the stock, the extractor, which was slightly bent; the bolt, which was bulged at the bottom, the forward extension of the trigger housing floorplate, and the bullet guide. The receiver was entirely undamaged, as were the locking lugs on the bolt and the headspace had not changed appreciably and was still within limits. The damaged parts were replaced, the headspace and functioning checked and the rifle was good to go.
The article did state that, with the powder used, 41 grains gives about 70,000 pounds PSI. " The exact pressure of the final charge of 52.5 grains was not known as it was feared that this would wreck the pressure gun, so no pressure tests were made."

tmark
08-14-2012, 10:33 PM
Thanks, JoeW, this is what I was referring to in his book.

photrod2000
08-14-2012, 10:33 PM
Decades ago yes; today, not so much so. I am glad I have one for my book shelf, but don't see myself using it as a reference much at all.

I pick up a lot of books at Good Will and such places to read. It's interesting how times change and how that change affects writing styles and writing in general. I recently read a book from the 60s I picked up a thrift store concerning the Native American Indians---so archaic and outdated. I would say Hatcher's book falls into that catagory, especially given a few of the slangs used that would never be printed today.

DaveHH
08-14-2012, 10:34 PM
I never talked to one who had ANYTHING bad to say about an M1 rifle.

Eric: I bought the book of the Garand after Hatcher's notebook. I paid $100 for it. I have to say that it is a much better book on the subject than the Notebook, which covers a variety of subjects. It goes into the rivalry between the Johnson and M1 and the political and top brass infighting. It tells how the Marine Corps modified it for target shooting as well as the whole story of its development. I am very happy with the book.

tmark
08-14-2012, 10:37 PM
A long time ago, someone said the Book of the Garand in a new edition is available for a much cheaper price. Anyone remember this who could direct me to this cheaper source?

RuggedTerrain40
08-14-2012, 10:44 PM
It goes into the rivalry between the Johnson and M1 and the political and top brass infighting. It tells how the Marine Corps modified it for target shooting as well as the whole story of its development.

That is the sort of information I like reading about. My understanding is the Marines initially did not like the M1 Garand, favoring the arguably more accurate bolt action 1903 Springfield. But by the end of WW2 and definitely by Korea, the Marines were totally sold on the M1 Garand.

Eric

RuggedTerrain40
08-14-2012, 10:45 PM
A long time ago, someone said the Book of the Garand in a new edition is available for a much cheaper price. Anyone remember this who could direct me to this cheaper source?

canton press, it is advertised on the sales page on CMP under M1 Garand.

Eric

RuggedTerrain40
08-14-2012, 10:49 PM
Ive seen pictures of "blown up" M1 receivers. But it is reportedly from 1) just plain wearing out of the metal over time and 2) not replacing the op rod spring frequently enough. Ive read if you change the op rod spring frequently you will save wear and tear on the bolt and receiver.

Whether or not M1 receivers have blown up or not, it is well known many op rods have been bent/ruined by too hot loads. The Sierra reloading manual lists the M1 op rod as that rifle's achilles heel.

Eric

Don't know as Hatcher himself ever blew up a Garand but on page 162 of "Hatchers Book of the Garand", there is a photograph of the results of a deliberate attempt to blow up a Garand. The photo shows the receiver of SA # 422349 after firing a charge of 52.2 grains of powder, which was all the cartridge case would hold.
Parts that were damaged were the stock, the extractor, which was slightly bent; the bolt, which was bulged at the bottom, the forward extension of the trigger housing floorplate, and the bullet guide. The receiver was entirely undamaged, as were the locking lugs on the bolt and the headspace had not changed appreciably and was still within limits. The damaged parts were replaced, the headspace and functioning checked and the rifle was good to go.
The article did state that, with the powder used, 41 grains gives about 70,000 pounds PSI. " The exact pressure of the final charge of 52.5 grains was not known as it was feared that this would wreck the pressure gun, so no pressure tests were made."

Orlando
08-15-2012, 05:16 AM
I bought it last year and wasnt overly impressed. Wish I would have used money $$$ on something else

J.R.2009
08-15-2012, 05:55 AM
Come on guys, the two books were written before most of you were even born and I was pooping yellow !!!
ANYONE who is into Garands and collecting them, these two, Hatcher's Notebook and The Book of the Garand, are must reads. And for the real collector, must haves.
Full of "new" info ? Hell no! But gives you a great insight into what the Garand went through to become our first ( successful ) semiautomatic battle rifle.
I have Hatcher's Note Book on my Nook. Still go back and read it on a rainy day. Both books are original prints. The Book of the Garand is an original First Edition.
Good reads !!:D

Shrevy
08-15-2012, 07:25 AM
Book of the Garand is available from the e-store (it's listed under "T" in books for "The Book of the Garand"). It is also available directly from Canton Street Press, Fulton Armory, Amazon and others. The link in my signature will give 10% of sale proceeds to the CMP when you buy through Canton Street Press. Shipping is free as well. Here is a 16 page preview of the book:

http://www.cantonstreetpress.com/v/previews/bookofgarandpreview.pdf

Sea3006
08-15-2012, 08:40 AM
The Hatcher book is worth it for it for sure. From a historical background, its worth every penny. Where else can you read about congressional inquires into 30-06 bullet weight.

Pat08
08-15-2012, 08:43 AM
I am reading it right now and think it was well worth the cost. It is amazing to think of all he took part in during his career.

Rick the Librarian
08-15-2012, 09:21 AM
I bought it several years ago on Scott Duff's recommendation and thoroughly enjoyed it. A LOT on the development of the rifle - a real "you are there" feeling, as Hatcher was there on the development and knew John Garand very well. I wouldn't have paid $100 for it, like it was going for awhile back, but I see it for $17.99 (paperback) and $24.95 (hardback) on a lot of online book sites - well worth the money at those prices

"Antiquated" rear sight?? News to me! :D

kraigwy
08-15-2012, 09:28 AM
I think it's well worth the price and a must have for any serious military firearms enthusiast.

Maybe I'm bias but Hatcher is my favorite gun writer. He certainly has more experience then any others I know of.

Besides The Book of the Garand, and Hatcher's Notebook, I have his Machine Guns 1916. Text Book of Pistols and Revolvers, Textbook of Firearms Identification, Investigation and Evidence.

I use them as reference and have found none better.

Lets take Machine Guns, I was a gunner for a while with the 101st Abn Div in Vietnam and realized we weren't using Machine Guns as we should. So when I joined the AK NG I sold them my ideal of a Machine Gun Program and started conducting schools more along the line of Hatcher's brother.

I mean, think back to your AIT days, did they teach you indirect fire with a Machine Gun?

That's just one example. I also used his Textbook of Firearms Identification, Investigation and Evidence in my LE CSI work.

If there is one gun writer I would would want to spend a day or two, milking his brain it would be Hatcher.

dpd3672
08-15-2012, 09:29 AM
I really liked it. It's not much use to the hardcore collector, looking for parts identification or manufacturing changes; but it's an interested background of the development of the gun from an insider.

For the $100+ it used to cost? Probably not worth it unless you're a die hard collector. For less than $20 on Amazon (or the E-store)? It's a must have, in my opinion.

Perplexed
08-15-2012, 10:41 AM
I agree with the sentiments about the book not being worth the $100 it'd cost for an original copy unless you're a book collector, but it's definitely worth the $20 the reprints go for now. I looked at a used original copy at a gun show last spring that was tagged at $100, and I'm glad I put it back because my reprint works just as well :D

Andykev
08-15-2012, 12:22 PM
canton press, it is advertised on the sales page on CMP under M1 Garand.

Eric

Amazon.com has it.

I got this book and found it really nice. Very good chapter on "Sights" alone. I am new to the M1 so it was quite a good book. Well written, and as mentioned above, great info and history.

Not too technical, very readable.

RuggedTerrain40
08-15-2012, 12:31 PM
If I bought it, I'd buy it new from either the e-store or from Canton Press. Last night I did not even know the e-store sold it. Is it the hardcover edition the e-store sells? Canton press gives you the option of hardcover or softcover. A book like that should probably be hardcover, IMO. Just personal preference.

Eric

RuggedTerrain40
08-15-2012, 12:33 PM
No way I'd pay $100 for that book. Or anything close to $100.


Eric

Shrevy
08-15-2012, 12:48 PM
The e-store sells the hardcover. The CMP makes the most if you buy from the e-store. They make some coin if you buy through CantonStreetPress.com and they make no money if you buy through Amazon. I don't know what the ship time is for the CMP, but Canton Street Press will ship same day or the following day depending on the time the order is placed.

kraigwy
08-15-2012, 12:51 PM
No way I'd pay $100 for that book. Or anything close to $100.

I would in a heart beat if that's all that was available.

Roadkingtrax
08-15-2012, 12:53 PM
Hatcher is a reference for the shooter or the historian.

Canfield and Duff are for the collector and corrector.

Pretty simple really. Hatcher will help you use it, Duff will help you sell it. I have a first edition, and happy to have purchased it...I may pick up a new copy to kick around and loan out to buddies I think might like it.

I'm with Kraig on this one...those that lived it know it best.

Rick the Librarian
08-15-2012, 05:26 PM
AddALL.com? What is AddALL.com? Some kind of online used bookstore? I will check it out.

thanks,

Eric

www.addall.com (http://www.addall.com) is a website that doesn't sell books. It lists book prices at about 30 of the leading websites online - Amazon, Albris, Half.com and many others. It shows you which is the cheapest and shipping is included, so you get a TOTAL price. I have used it for years and it has proven VERY useful. They have a "new" book section and a "used" one.

Dollar Bill
08-15-2012, 05:30 PM
Hatcher is a reference for the shooter or the historian.

Canfield and Duff are for the collector and corrector.

Pretty simple really. Hatcher will help you use it, Duff will help you sell it. I have a first edition, and happy to have purchased it...I may pick up a new copy to kick around and loan out to buddies I think might like it.

I'm with Kraig on this one...those that lived it know it best.

Thank you for that. It put's into perspective perfectly. It's on my "buy" list now.I read his "Notebook" 30 years ago and wish I had that original copy now, but it was a library book.

I was just espousing the virtue of reading original works. The topic was an experiment some rag did on bullet deformation. Frank Mann did the definitive work in 1907 in his "Flight of the bullet". Great stuff.

Roadkingtrax
08-15-2012, 06:11 PM
No problem DB, just my take on it.

For a short book, that could have been burdened by the weight of engineering principles...it simply isn't. Nothing more tiresome than an article written by a bloated PhD (Pile it Higher and Deeper) on the subject of his study.

I found it really easy to read, and I'm not a reader. The section on WW2 observations was the capstone chapter...and very interesting in that regard. Hatcher talks about the M1 as it was then, and to most people today...a tool of war. The book was published after the war, so it does not discuss Korea or post war developments in design and manufacture. There is also an excellent discussion about how to squeeze the most accuracy out of an M1...at least the thinking of the time. The same tricks of assembly that are cussed and discussed today.

Wineman
08-15-2012, 11:02 PM
I believe that the question related to the book not the rifle. Did I say I did not like the Garand? Were the original sights crappy and have been replaced twice? Was the rifle an ammo waster and hard to top up in combat? Does Hatcher lambast the rifle for those two issues? Is it fun to shoot today? (yes) Do I own one and really like using it? (yes). Do I own hardback copies of both Hatcher's notebook and Hatcher's Garand (yes, along with War Baby, both volumes, Complete Guide to the Garand and M1 Carbine, M1 Carbine for Collectors, and about 1,000 other books on military equipment and military history plus an M1 Carbine, M1 Garand, M1903A3, M1917, AR15, no M1A, darn). I do not think that anything I said was incorrect or without issue. Many of my relatives served in WW2. Many perished under the Nazi regime. My father served in Desert Storm 1 and I am 55 so saying that I think eight million GI's were wrong is really a personal attack and unwarranted since it is said from ignorance and not knowledge what I think or my opinion about the M1 Garand.

It is a great site but for the moderators to allow the personal attacks to continue is wrong.

Wineman

PKelly
08-16-2012, 08:08 AM
I believe that the question related to the book not the rifle. Did I say I did not like the Garand? Were the original sights crappy and have been replaced twice? Was the rifle an ammo waster and hard to top up in combat? Does Hatcher lambast the rifle for those two issues? Is it fun to shoot today? (yes) Do I own one and really like using it? (yes). Do I own hardback copies of both Hatcher's notebook and Hatcher's Garand (yes, along with War Baby, both volumes, Complete Guide to the Garand and M1 Carbine, M1 Carbine for Collectors, and about 1,000 other books on military equipment and military history plus an M1 Carbine, M1 Garand, M1903A3, M1917, AR15, no M1A, darn). I do not think that anything I said was incorrect or without issue. Many of my relatives served in WW2. Many perished under the Nazi regime. My father served in Desert Storm 1 and I am 55 so saying that I think eight million GI's were wrong is really a personal attack and unwarranted since it is said from ignorance and not knowledge what I think or my opinion about the M1 Garand.

It is a great site but for the moderators to allow the personal attacks to continue is wrong.

Wineman

Lighten up and try to avoid getting your man panties in a bunch. I don't see any responses to you that are really very personal. This sight has more sacred cows than most. You kick one of the biggest ones and are surprised by the negative response?

Come on.