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-   -   Repatriated D-Day Gun Stock (http://forums.thecmp.org/showthread.php?t=4700)

KnickKnack 01-02-2010 03:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4th_AD_son (Post 37981)
So, some Frenchman finds this stock in a farmhouse in Northern France and thinks to himself...Hey, let me find a stamp and put a fake cartouche on this perfectly correct "I" cut, unmodified high wood stock, with correct buttplate, recoil plate, type "A" band, early full-threaded recoil plate screw - not to mention the "IU" oiler and correct WWII sling.
He then goes on to make up a soldier's name and serial number which just happen to match a real person?

I don't think so...some person at the factory simply put the cartouche on the left side by mistake. As my wife likes to say: "It is what it is."

Anyway, I posted additional pictures and actually found another soldier's name written very lightly on the sling. It appears to be W.W.Childs.

This is getting more interesting by the day.

At this point, I am not questioning the sling or the ID's on it, although it would be nice to confirm that the serial number matches the soldier. Keep in mind that any part, including the sling can be attached to any stock.

I am saying that a little more research needs to be done on the stock. Not only is the cartouche in the wrong place, it does not match the examples I have on file for Underwood. Perhaps someone else has a better example available. Did the selller say how he came to acquire the stock and why it is not on a carbine? I would also be concerned about the lack of damage in the normal places that a combat weapon would have damage, as well as the extremely good condition of the butt plate. I sincerely hope that I am wrong and that the story checks out for you. I also hope that you got the stock at a fair price. If it were me, I might have walked away from the deal without a complete inspection and research.

welby 01-02-2010 08:21 AM

wrong P proof
 
Underwood never used that P proof on the stock to my knowledge , no US carbine maker used a serifed P-someone prove me wrong-just show me-I am just trying to help--I am betting it was a nice stock that was used on a reenactors gun and maybe just a original sling with the name and then maybe someone just copied that info on it-

welby 01-02-2010 08:22 AM

barrel band
 
I hope the barrel band didn't come with it also-look closely at screw-I am guessing a repro

BQ97 01-02-2010 11:06 AM

The letters in the sling well indicate the stock was made by Rock-Ola. It just happens to have some Underwood parts on it. The UEF parts don't make it an Underwood stock. Now it is possible it is one of the stocks Underwood received from Rock-Ola but if that were the case one would expect to see an Underwood acceptance stamp on the right side. The acceptance stamp on early Underwood stocks was a boxed UEF over GHD. Latter on they added the crossed cannon symbol outside the boxed UEF over GHD. Still later the crossed cannon symbol was located inside the box with the UEF over GHD. There were also a couple size variations mixed in their as well. All the acceptance stamps were on the right side not the left. Underwood used a circled P, sans serifs early in production and dropped the stock proof later on. This stock has a serifed P. So now we have a supposedly Underwood stock made by Rock-Ola that has an incorrect proof mark and no acceptance stamp on the right side. What we do have is a crossed cannon symbol on the left side that does not resemble either the style used by Underwood or Rock-Ola. The ordnance acceptance stamps used at the UEF and RMC plants were very distinct and even though the picture of the symbol is washed out by the flash it is obvious it isn't one of them.

welby 01-02-2010 12:36 PM

thanks BQ
 
wow--I was a undisputed expert for maybe 2 1/2 hrs!!! crashed and burned quickly--I only said to my knowledge! no flaming allowed The earliest Underwood I have handled was a 1356xxx, it never had the serif P. Dag nabbit, now another variation I have to hunt for, when is it going to stop????

reelguy 01-02-2010 01:08 PM

Welby,

Don't fret... I'm an expert in my own mind "60 % of the time, every time"! lol

rg

Quote:

Originally Posted by welby (Post 38128)
wow--I was a undisputed expert for maybe 2 1/2 hrs!!! crashed and burned quickly--I only said to my knowledge! no flaming allowed The earliest Underwood I have handled was a 1356xxx, it never had the serif P. Dag nabbit, now another variation I have to hunt for, when is it going to stop????


ramit 01-02-2010 01:12 PM

"when is it going to stop???? "

when you finally have 1 of every variation and example of very mistake made by the factories (even those not known as of now)....

4th_AD_son 01-02-2010 02:07 PM

I'm all for getting to the truth...
Here are additional pictures of the cartouche and a close up of the barrel band. I'll let other experts determine what is real or not.

What I do know is the soldier's name and serial number are real. I have found him on the Nat'l Archieves site and have spoken to his son who has confirmed enough information to convince me that the - at least the sling was his father's.


http://aad.archives.gov/aad/record-d...=1&rid=7847812



http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2539/...2b8a92e5_m.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2663/...33071489_m.jpg

J.R.2009 01-02-2010 03:48 PM

I'm just following along with the story. It's all very interesting. The pics on the last post are too small to make out any detail. The military records thing is really neat.
J.R.

KnickKnack 01-02-2010 04:00 PM

In the first pictures you posted on your link, look closely at the back of the cannons on the cartouche. I can find no examples of original cartouches that have the back lines as rounded from the outer circle to the "ovals" as this cartouche does. They are almost a half circle.

Also, Type 1 and 1A barrel bands have solid barrel rings. They are not cut at the bottom. Yours appears to be a reproduction.


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