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-   -   Help Identifying My 1903 (http://forums.thecmp.org/showthread.php?t=230884)

Logman 07-08-2018 10:30 AM

Help Identifying My 1903
 
I have had this rifle for some time now however I have never disassembled or shot it. Since it was 110 degrees out here yesterday I decided to examine it closely. I'm a fair student of the 1903 but there are some things that have me stumped. Here is what I know (or think I know):
-Serial number 949564 puts the receiver at 1918 production
-Barrel date is 7-18 with an added A meaning that is was acceptable when it went thru a rebuild
-Triple cartouche= original 1918 WES, SA/SPG late 30's rebuild, CSAA San Antonio arsenal post WW2 rebuilt / check and test
-Triple proof marks on wrist for each arsenal generation
-Looks to be original cocking piece and bolt sleeve to the 1918 production
-N.S. Bolt probably from the SA/SPG arsenal
-Parkerized finish applied along the way ?
-Split front sling swivel probably original
-H marked bayo lug probably original
-Remington trigger and elevation piece probably from San Antonio arsenal
-NO Hatcher hole
-NO front sight blade numbers
What I don't know:
-What manufacture is the sear? I see what appears to be a 2 but I don't know
-Note the numbers stamped on barrel, these are under the wood and about 8 inches back. What are these?
-Now the big one - Wrench Marks? I know this is indicative to USMC rebuilds but there are no other USMC traits. I don't think the arsenals that are marked on the stock would have done this. Also, the muzzle gauges at ZERO, could they have by happenstance replaced the barrel with one that is date correct? Headspace with USGI gauges is perfect? I don't understand that if the barrel was inspected and received the A mark why it would have come off in the first place. Also, the numbers stamped on the barrel 8 inches back have me further confused. Could this be a USMC without the other traits?
I would appreciate any thoughts of advice on what I have here with this rifle, photos below:

https://imgur.com/a/ox4CWcz

cplnorton 07-08-2018 10:52 AM

Personally, this one doesn't strike me as USMC. The finish and everything looks different than what you usually see. But it was probably refinished at San Antonio. The vise marks on the barrel are a fuzz different too. Usually the Marine vise marks remind me of some kind of vise on a table that is in a fixed position and the barrel was clamped into that vise and doesn't move. These vise marks remind me more of a pipe wrench put on it. Something that wasn't in a fixed position.

The serial range in the SRS is strong Navy though. Maybe there is some correlation with that. But it's so hard to say.

But at least to me, I don't get a strong sense of USMC when I look at the rifle. At least not enough there to say for sure USMC. It's a very nice rifle though!


949042 031340USS PENNSYLVANIA (BB38)

949306 120741USS CALIFORNIA (BB44)(SALVAGED)

949378 062840PUGET SOUND NAVY YD

949517 051429CO B CORPS OF CADETS USMA

949554 081843NAV SUP DEP OAKLAND

949576 061740USS CALIFORNIA (BB44)

949601 052240USS NORTHAMPTON (CA26)

949617 120741USS CALIFORNIA (BB44)(SALVAGED)

949625 122040PUGET SOUND NAVY YD

949715 052240USS NORTHAMPTON (CA26)

949812A2 110843WASH NAVY YD (SURVEYED)

950078 041835HQ TRP 12TH CAV (REPAIRED)

950090 081142USNR (TURNED IN)

950114 092441NAV SUP DEP NORFOLK (GAUGED)

950156 070143USS SC-696

950197 082341PUGET SOUND NAVY YD

cplnorton 07-08-2018 11:12 AM

Andrew found a document on the A stamp on the barrel. I'm pretty sure the doc doesn't mention they were recycled off Rebuilds, I think the document referred to them as "Second" class barrels.

But I don't remember for sure. That would be a good one for Andrew to comment on.

The numbers on the barrel, I think are a heat lot code for the barrel.

The 7 in the cutoff, we found the doc on that. That is a date code for inspection for 1937. That would make sense with the SPG cartouche. That is probably when the stock went through a rebuild at SA.

I'm guessing at least that stock went through a rebuild at SA pre WWII, and then I think the whole rifle went through a rebuild at San Antonio during the war or right after. That square stamp I'm pretty sure is a San Antonio proof mark and that finish does remind me of the park I have seen on their rebuilds as well.

Jpm 07-08-2018 12:57 PM

I thought the square proof meant it was proofed with the barrel it came in with and the circled was with a new or replaced barrel?

Anyway my gut tells me someone replaced the barrel with a period correct one after it left the government.

Kaliman 07-08-2018 01:44 PM

Agree with Norton. Usually don't see that gritty looking park on the Marine rifles.

Nice rifle though.

7,62x51mm 07-08-2018 04:13 PM

I thought that the P in square proof was post WW2

Rick the Librarian 07-08-2018 05:36 PM

A "squared" P indicates a rebuild/inspection at either San Antonio Arsenal or Red River Arsenal during WWII.

cplnorton 07-08-2018 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 7,62x51mm (Post 1733633)
I thought that the P in square proof was post WW2

That is really the general consensus. Even though there are some Garand rebuild traits that are thought of as post War, and we found them described in docs as soon as 1944. That is why I usually say during WWII or post war anymore. And I think San Antonio closed soon after WWII.

I think it sort of comes down to some arsenals had their own distinct style of proof mark. Not all were just a circle P with serif's.

I've seen a lot of San Antonio proofed stocks over the years with a rectangular proof P.

The Proof P just shows that after rebuild the rifle was fired with a higher than normal PSI proof round, or some cases several. It just meant it held together with a hotter loaded round. So it should be safe for normal ammunition.

John Beard 07-08-2018 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Logman (Post 1733550)
What I don't know:
-What manufacture is the sear? I see what appears to be a 2 but I don't know
-Note the numbers stamped on barrel, these are under the wood and about 8 inches back. What are these?
-Now the big one - Wrench Marks? I know this is indicative to USMC rebuilds but there are no other USMC traits. I don't think the arsenals that are marked on the stock would have done this. Also, the muzzle gauges at ZERO, could they have by happenstance replaced the barrel with one that is date correct? Headspace with USGI gauges is perfect? I don't understand that if the barrel was inspected and received the A mark why it would have come off in the first place. Also, the numbers stamped on the barrel 8 inches back have me further confused. Could this be a USMC without the other traits?
I would appreciate any thoughts of advice on what I have here with this rifle, photos below:


Answers are as follows:

(1) The sear is from a mid-to-late production Remington M'03-A3 and the "2" is a Remington subinspection mark.

(2) The numbers stamped in the barrel are the steel lot code, which is WL 29.

(3) The wrench marks in the barrel are a relic from when the barrel was removed and replaced, perhaps to repair or replace the rear sight fixed base. The wrench marks in the barrel did not originate from the USMC.

(4) The "A" mark in the barrel indicates that the barrel could only be installed new as an original assembly at Springfield Armory.

(5) Army Ordnance overhaul procedures required that each rifle be completely stripped down, the parts sorted into bins, inspected, gauged, and refinished as required, then re-assembled from thoroughly-mixed parts. Each rifle, therefore, would not likely exhibit any parts from previous overhauls.

(6) The boxed "C-SAA" inspection stamp in the stock is the late WWII inspection stamp of the San Antonio Arsenal, which is probably where the rifle was last overhauled. One can only speculate what rifles were in the stock when it received the previous inspection stamps.

I see no USMC traits.

J.B.

Jpm 07-08-2018 08:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick the Librarian (Post 1733654)
A "squared" P indicates a rebuild/inspection at either San Antonio Arsenal or Red River Arsenal during WWII.

Thanks Rick, I knew you or JB would chime in with the correct info!


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