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-   -   Marine Carbines (http://forums.thecmp.org/showthread.php?t=260960)

Rock 03-25-2020 01:28 PM

Marine Carbines
 
How long did the Marines issue carbines? I assume that they had them up until the adoption of the M14 but I read somewhere that there was some dissatisfaction with them during the Korean war and that they were dropped soon after the war.

gunny 03-25-2020 01:56 PM

Penetration of North Korean and Chinese cold weather clothing was hindering "knockdowns" so head shots were called for. Chesty Puller demanded Garands for his Marines armed with Carbines....

weimar_police 03-25-2020 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gunny (Post 1923887)
Penetration of North Korean and Chinese cold weather clothing was hindering "knockdowns" so head shots were called for. Chesty Puller demanded Garands for his Marines armed with Carbines....

This is a common thought/myth, but if you do a google search or youtube search, you will find about a dozen people who have shot frozen clothing, frozen phonebooks, etc showing penetration is on par with many other rounds. The carbine has the velocity of about a 357 magnum, and penetration in round nose is as you'd expect--- no offense, but I think its more likely that the garand shot like a rifle and the carbine simply didn't.

I have never been able to find anyone willing to stand 100 yards from me and let me shoot at them with my carbine :)


Ed

mrrm 03-25-2020 03:47 PM

There is footage of Marines armed with either M1 or M2 Carbines during the TET offensive battle for HUE City Vietnam. Not saying the carbine was in wide issuance by the USMC at this time but carbines were in use in very small numbers.

crabby13 03-25-2020 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by weimar_police (Post 1923896)
This is a common thought/myth, but if you do a google search or youtube search, you will find about a dozen people who have shot frozen clothing, frozen phonebooks, etc showing penetration is on par with many other rounds. The carbine has the velocity of about a 357 magnum, and penetration in round nose is as you'd expect--- no offense, but I think its more likely that the garand shot like a rifle and the carbine simply didn't.

I have never been able to find anyone willing to stand 100 yards from me and let me shoot at them with my carbine :)


Ed

I have seen some videos on you tube that were a little shocking as to what the little carbine penetrated. Layers of frozen clothing wouldnt stand a chance .

bandhunter31 03-26-2020 12:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by weimar_police (Post 1923896)
This is a common thought/myth, but if you do a google search or youtube search, you will find about a dozen people who have shot frozen clothing, frozen phonebooks, etc showing penetration is on par with many other rounds. The carbine has the velocity of about a 357 magnum, and penetration in round nose is as you'd expect--- no offense, but I think its more likely that the garand shot like a rifle and the carbine simply didn't.

I have never been able to find anyone willing to stand 100 yards from me and let me shoot at them with my carbine :)


Ed

and its not as if the u.s military had not used the Carbine extensively in other cold weather combat situations....... the Nazi's must have been issuing "last ditch" cold weather gear during the Battle of the Bulge, which was not up to the same quality as the Chi-Com stuff in Korean......i think it was a combination of marksmanship (or lack of) and the weapon/caliber that was being used beyond its intended purpose........

cplnorton 03-26-2020 05:33 AM

The frozen clothing stopping the .30 Carbine is a myth. I've talked to numerous Marine vets from the Chosin, including one who carried two M2 carbines, and also reading the the Marine docs, they never discuss this. In fact the Marine vets usually laugh when you mention this to them, the same as when you mention the the enemy waiting for the "ping" of a M1 Garand. The carbine was effective but not much past 100 yards, which the terrain of Korea was much more favored to the .30 CAL M1.

They did however start to phase out the Carbine in 1951. They wanted every Marine to be armed with the M1 Garand, just because of logistics mostly. They would need only one set of replacement parts on hand for one rifle platform, only having to train new Marines on one style of rifle, and only one caliber of ammo shipped to the field. It made sense as logistics in a war for multiple weapon platforms is a pain.

Plus the Marines LOVED the M1 Garand. Everyone thinks the Marines loved the M14 rifle. This wasn't the case. The Marines only switched to the M14 because they were FORCED to. The Marines had to switch to a 7.62 CAL rifle by a certain date, so they had no choice to get rid of the Garand. They tried to switch the Garand to the .308 but they could never get it to function right. If it wasn't for the fact they had to align with the new caliber ammo, you would have never seen the M14 in the Marines.

Quite frankly the Marines just loved the M1 rifle.

The Carbine basically was pulled at the end of Korea. I have all the documents on this but it's been a year or two since I've read them so I know I'm rusty.

But they authorized it for guard duty I believe but that was about it. Otherwise they mostly were turned in or sat in storage.

The last I saw of them in counts and mentions was the late 50's if I remember right.

GM1MAN 03-26-2020 07:26 AM

If I remember correctly what I have read, the M1 Carbine was originally developed as a replacement for the 1911 .45 ACP pistol, especially for the those who had crew served weapons, vehicle drivers, rear echelon troops and others. Many troops liked it because of it’s light weight.

I do not know many folks that can shoot the 1911 at 100 yards with any accuracy when compared to the M1 Carbine, I know I can’t.

vagrant 03-26-2020 08:17 AM

No, definitely not as a replacement for the 1911. Crew served weapons, yes. Machinegun service-supply, ammo carriers, mortar crew supply, all yes. The 1911 was never to be replaced with the Carbine. The Carbine was not designed for rear echelon.
The origin was for main line battle weapon supporting roles where performing that task was too cumbersome with the Garand or too vulnerable with the pistol.

cplnorton 03-26-2020 08:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vagrant (Post 1924071)
No, definitely not as a replacement for the 1911. Crew served weapons, yes. Machinegun service-supply, ammo carriers, mortar crew supply, all yes. The 1911 was never to be replaced with the Carbine. The Carbine was not designed for rear echelon.
The origin was for main line battle weapon supporting roles where performing that task was too cumbersome with the Garand or too vulnerable with the pistol.

Actually for the Marines he is correct. The Carbine was meant to replace the M1911. I have the documents on it from the Headquarters Marine Corps.

The Marines actually wanted to get rid of the .45 caliber ammo going to the Pacific and viewed the Carbine as a more effective weapon than the pistol.

The early field reports stated the .45 pistol was all but useless in the jungle, so the Carbine was seen as the better solution since because of it's small size and stopping power, it was seen as superior.

So the M1 Carbine was meant to replace the M1911, the Thompson SMG, and the Reising SMG and was going to be issued for any Marine or Corpsman that his main job wasn't as a rifleman.

There is a period of time in the middle of the war, Headquarters Marine Corps pushed this sentiment hard. Pistols became very rare in the Pacific.

By the end of the war though, they decided pistols do have merit. So they reversed their decision and kept the M1911A1 in service.


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