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-   -   Powders...new is not always perfection (http://forums.thecmp.org/showthread.php?t=246463)

milprileb 05-21-2019 09:24 AM

Powders...new is not always perfection
 
The below comments reflect my experience with 1000 yd accuracy with NON GARAND rifles.

For my 30 caliber reloading and 6.5 Creedmoor reloading, I don't chase (nor pay higher prices) for Varget and H4350...both of which have become niche powders , short in supply at times and higher in cost.

I find for 6.5 CM: Standard Non Sexy IMR4350 actually outperforms H4350 and I can find it, pay less for it. I find RL 17 equally the match for H4350 velocity (and accuracy). Its also cheaper and easy to find. Both IMR 4350 and RL 17 is off most radars for powder.

I find for 3006 and 308: IMR 4895, H4895 and IMR 4350 and IMR 4064 are every bit as good or better than Varget and while I really like Varget, these 3 old school powders are easy to find, saner priced and do the job.

I find for 556 which I shoot at 600, 800 and 1000 yds: H4895 and RL 15 both out perform Varget in my AR's.

I am sure for those of you that shoot 100 to 300 yds, just about any powder will suffice for your purposes if you do load development and arrive at a accurate performing load for your rifle. For certain, it does not have to be Varget which has become a Niche powder name and you might take a hard look at powders mentioned here...old reliables that get no respect these days and BLC2 which gets nearly zero visibility but even during the 8 yrs of Hope & Change powder panic/droughts, BLC2 like IMR 4064 was always easy to find when niche powders were extinct.

Here is a bottom feeder powder IMR 3031. I had some so I did a bit of load development with 150 gr BTHP and 175 gr SMK's for my 7.5 Swiss (scoped), K31 carbine. At 300 yds I was killing skeet birds ..single skeet birds (4.5 in diameter) and at 600 yds, I was killing the pieces of broken birds. I had found a great use for IMR 3031 for short range use in my K31 and that load will be used if / when other powders dry up and everyone is walking past IMR 3031. Will 3031 float your boat for your purpose ...don't know , do your home work and see if it will serve your 100 to 600 yd use. I see no velocity with it that would take me to 800/1000 yd lines.

Chase the new powders if you must, drink the Kool Aid niche powders are the way to go and its all good. However , don't assume standard powder selections don't provide extremely good options for reloading precision ammunition.

Here is my last parting shot. The Mk316 Mod O load for military 308 caliber /762 caliber semi auto sniper systems is 41.745 gr of IMR 4064 pushing a 175 gr SMK. This is not a max load and its not a sexy powder but this load shot in my 308 Tikka long range rifle and my non match Springfield M1A are deadly accurate on the 1000 yd line. Far superior in accuracy than any of my Varget loads ever developed for these two rifles for long range performance. Recoil is mild, accuracy is outstanding and this IMR 4064 load will shoot tighter groups than I can hold my rifles at 1000 yds. Will 42 gr IMR 4064 work...I'd guess just fine. I do use a weight that allow me to precisely duplicate the military load of 41.745 grains.

Old Powders: Snooze Ya Lose. :GS: and Yes, I do like Varget and still use it but its not the secret sauce its been cheer leaded to be.

WindLogik 05-21-2019 09:40 AM

I don't understand how Varget could be a "niche" powder when it is pretty good for nearly every non-magnum rifle load. For HP rifle, which is a fairly large number of volume reloaders, it is great for most calibers: 6 BR, 308, 556, others. There are a lot of "standard" HP loads that use Varget for service rifle and Palma rilfe. These loads shoot so well for these sports, no reason to change. This probably has something to do with it's availability. I just can't see how it is a "niche" powder.

milprileb 05-21-2019 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WindLogik (Post 1835981)
I don't understand how Varget could be a "niche" powder I just can't see how it is a "niche" powder.

It became a niche powder because it became a brand name on this and other boards as the Be All powder for 30 caliber loads. That drove attention, drove supply down and price up. Go price it ...its always significantly higher now than other powders but its a good powder and if you like it , drive on.

The point of the thread is: Varget is not the Answer. Its one of the Answers and Older Answers really do perform ...they really do.

Obviously Varget is "Your Best Powder". Congrats. Its not mine but its one of many that best perform.

Nothing wrong with Varget but its not always easy to find due to high visibility press on it. I go thru 47 pounds of powder on average each year, I go with performers and don't care if its Varget, IMR's or RL powders, I use them all and find all perform "best" ...far more accurate performance than I can hold at 1000 yds. Varget is great but its not as Wonderful and Perfect as its talked about but its darn good.

WindLogik 05-21-2019 01:36 PM

I use many powders. But I do like varget for service rifle loads and palms loads. I preach Varget to our new shooters to save load development and screwing around. The service rifle loads with varget are decades old and reduce time for load development. That is always nice.

I guess that I feel that the word niche would imply a small and specific market. I believe that varget is one of the most desired and sought after powders because it is not niche.

rcolarco 05-21-2019 02:08 PM

I still have my first loading manual, Lyman #44. Here are the powders listed for 30-06, 165 grain bullets:

IMR 3031
IMR 4895
IMR 4064 (most accurate, 47.5 grains)
IMR 4320
IMR 4350
Ball C2
H380
4831 (H? IMR?)
H450
RX11
RX21

Couldn't find a copyright date, had to be about 1967. I loaded X-ring ammunition for years out of this manual. As bullets and barrels got better, x-count increased.

milprileb 05-21-2019 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WindLogik (Post 1836020)
I use many powders. But I do like varget for service rifle loads and palms loads. I preach Varget to our new shooters to save load development and screwing around. The service rifle loads with varget are decades old and reduce time for load development. That is always nice.

I guess that I feel that the word niche would imply a small and specific market. I believe that varget is one of the most desired and sought after powders because it is not niche.

I'm from Kentucky and you're from Washington state, I'd say in my part of the woods, your grasp of English is left coast ! LOL LOL

milprileb 05-21-2019 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rcolarco (Post 1836023)
I still have my first loading manual, Lyman #44. Here are the powders listed for 30-06, 165 grain bullets:

IMR 3031
IMR 4895
IMR 4064 (most accurate, 47.5 grains)
IMR 4320
IMR 4350
Ball C2
H380
4831 (H? IMR?)
H450
RX11
RX21

Couldn't find a copyright date, had to be about 1967. I loaded X-ring ammunition for years out of this manual. As bullets and barrels got better, x-count increased.

as always...sliding back to Garands on the subject...reloading and shooting is more than Garands but old habits die hard ! I love shooting M1's too but I really love shooting 1000 yds with modern rifles that have the legs for that kind of distance...granted some M1 shooters did that in days gone by.

WindLogik 05-21-2019 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by milprileb (Post 1836025)
I'm from Kentucky and you're from Washington state, I'd say in my part of the woods, your grasp of English is left coast ! LOL LOL

Not on the coast. I'm inland. Where I live, im probably as far from the coast as you are.

I was just using the dictionary definition.

Pertaining or intended for a market niche, having specific appeal

I've never heard someone refer to something that is broadly applicable as niche

rcolarco 05-21-2019 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by milprileb (Post 1836027)
as always...sliding back to Garands on the subject...reloading and shooting is more than Garands but old habits die hard ! I love shooting M1's too but I really love shooting 1000 yds with modern rifles that have the legs for that kind of distance...granted some M1 shooters did that in days gone by.

I don't believe I mentioned Garands. The Lyman data was for 30-06, no rifle specified. I used it in Garands and bolt guns interchangeably, before we all "knew better."

milprileb 05-22-2019 08:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WindLogik (Post 1836029)
Not on the coast. I'm inland. Where I live, im probably as far from the coast as you are.

I was just using the dictionary definition.

Pertaining or intended for a market niche, having specific appeal

I've never heard someone refer to something that is broadly applicable as niche

Your love of Varget is certainly noted. There are other powders (as stated in this thread and is the reason for this thread ) that are equal to it for long range precision shooting...or short range for that matter.

Niche as an adjective means having specialized appeal. Varget is just that, mainly because cheer leaders for it always paint it as "The Powder". Well, it is not and this thread throws light on that.

I have made it abundantly clear, even to the most casual observer, that other powders can bring in long range accuracy.

You disagree ? Post a thread stating why Varget is "Best"...otherwise, move on .


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