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-   -   Not Again (http://forums.thecmp.org/showthread.php?t=217371)

lapriester 10-09-2017 09:47 AM

Not Again
 
God, N CA is burning again. Devastating Santa Rosa and Napa areas. Virtually downtown in SR. Hospitals evacuated in SR. No planes all night and fires grew in 20-50 MPH winds all night. Napa fire from 200 to 20K acres in about 10 hours.

dnmccoy 10-09-2017 09:51 AM

Good luck and godspeed

Roadkingtrax 10-09-2017 10:36 AM

Time to shore up that defensible space if you live in the mountains.

J.R.2009 10-09-2017 12:03 PM

Hang in there Larry. Thoughts and prayers to you all.

ACampComLegacy 10-09-2017 12:08 PM

Uh ohes... only 2 things to do there:

1) Safeguard / evac

2)
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/3e/ca/ff/3...arshmallow.jpg

microwaveguy 10-09-2017 02:48 PM

This one is REALLY nasty.

https://srcity.org/610/Emergency-Information

I have relatives that are just outside the evac area and they are packing like there is no tomorrow.

DaveHH 10-09-2017 03:50 PM

About $100M in $1-2M homes burnt overnight about 2 miles from my place. The fire has stopped about 1/2 mile away and holding. The Hilton hotel at Fountaingrove burned to the ground and no firemen around. There is a giant fiasco in the making. The entire city of Santa Rosa is practically surrounded by flames and they have enough firemen for about 1/20 of it. The officials are busy telling everyone what a great job they are doing, a sure sign that they screwed up royally. It is now almost 2PM and I have not heard or seen a single borate plane all day. The company that does the firefighting is located 5 miles n/o town. The city of Rohnert Park is partially on fire as is Sonoma, Napa and Calistoga. The fire organizations are saying "We are spending our efforts on saving lives not property." meaning we haven't got a chance of stopping this thing. I think that there is more to this story than is being related. There are several different fires at different locations and 50 mph winds spread it over 20K acres. If the wind comes up again tonight the rest of the county will probably go up in flames.

1stgarand 10-09-2017 04:05 PM

Seems like everything would have burned by now with all the fires. Good luck, and keep safe!

sigman2 10-09-2017 05:19 PM

Good luck to all in the affected area!

GGaskill 10-09-2017 05:39 PM

There is a 2000 acre fire in Anaheim Hills with strong winds. Fires everywhere. Too many people.

Larry, is there anything left to burn around you?

BryanJ 10-09-2017 06:14 PM

Being a Floridian, I think I'd rather take my chances with a hurricane. Best of luck gentlemen, our thoughts and prayers are with you.

Johnho 10-09-2017 06:15 PM

In the last two years I've been through 2 nasty hurricanes. I don't know what's worse but I do know the feelings these people are going through is horrible. The end result of either is devastation and heartbreak. Total hopelessness as there is NOTHING you can do. Good luck folks.

MustangMan 10-09-2017 09:16 PM

Wish we were able to send you some of the rainfall that we got from Irma or Nate.

Stay safe Larry!

Ohio Don 10-09-2017 09:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MustangMan (Post 1645996)
Wish we were able to send you some of the rainfall that we got from Irma or Nate.

Stay safe Larry!

Ditto. We are expecting more by the end of the week which we don't need while CA does. I went out tonight at 1800 to cut more of the trees that are down. That lasted less than 30 minutes before we got more rain.

Larry, has anyone out there ever thought about putting sprinklers on the roofs of homes so that when there is a fire, you turn on a low volume system that just wets the roof?

Oldloader 10-09-2017 11:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio Don (Post 1646003)
Ditto. We are expecting more by the end of the week which we don't need while CA does. I went out tonight at 1800 to cut more of the trees that are down. That lasted less than 30 minutes before we got more rain.

Larry, has anyone out there ever thought about putting sprinklers on the roofs of homes so that when there is a fire, you turn on a low volume system that just wets the roof?

Our daughter in Volcano has a big #30 Rainbird on top of their house

ibm1jh 10-10-2017 08:21 AM

Sad
 
Our thoughts and prayers for safety first, property second are with you, Larry, Dave, and all in California (both north and south). Fire is just so all-consuming with absolutely nothing left to salvage. It is very scary. :cry:

But save your life first. Property is secondary. Good luck and Godspeed.

DaveHH 10-10-2017 01:16 PM

"Larry, has anyone out there ever thought about putting sprinklers on the roofs of homes so that when there is a fire, you turn on a low volume system that just wets the roof?[/QUOTE]

I have a huge water tank about 1000' up the hill, so it would work for me, but if you have a well and no power, no go. Supposedly 99K have no power.
They have 200+ LEO from out of town locking down the evacuated areas and they are dead serious. Looters are out and about and are being arrested. The fire has now approached town from the south and is trying to come over Annadel County park and drop down into Bennett Valley. Again some of the highest price property in the state.
Like most stuff here in the Golden State, the officials have plans to provide free stuff to illegals but apparently no plan to save their city from burning to the ground. The fire people are letting a lot of structures just burn (Like the Fountaingrove Hilton Hotel) and at the same time telling us that flying embers are causing most of the spreading fires. Does that make any sense at all? A subdivision is gone and yet open gas lines are burning unabated at most foundations. I have yet to see more than a half dozen firefighters actually putting out fires. It is all about people standing around acting busy and important while the destroyed neighborhoods still are burning. Our mayor had a press conference and looked like he was going to start sobbing at any moment. They are completely lost in space and haven't a clue. Amateur hour for sure.

J.R.2009 10-10-2017 02:47 PM

I thought all the houses had slate tiles on the roofs. Looks to me like the houses were burning from INSIDE out!!! Crazy. Plus all those nice homes were built almost on top of each other, no yards just houses 15 feet apart or less.

Det. Jason 714 10-10-2017 02:57 PM

Prayers to all those affected by this terrible event.

lapriester 10-10-2017 04:16 PM

No sprinklers would have made a difference Sunday night. Winds were unprecedented gusting to 80 MPH and yes, most houses in Santa Rosa have tile or composite shingles. Nothing would have helped. Like a fire hurricane. The scary part was it was mostly urban with mini malls, pavement, parking lots, motels, industrial and residential. The fire went from 200 acres over the hill to SR to 20k in about 4 hours.

HB of CJ 10-10-2017 04:53 PM

Bad Things May Always Happen ...
 
I'm retired fire service from a small very good agency. Stuff like this should not happen, but for whatever combination of events seems to. In lots of folk's cases HAS happened to. No matter how much fire suppressive force can be applied, it CAN NOT all be applied instantly. Or in one small area.

Thus the rub. I do not have the particulars in this horrible on going affair. Could the whole thing have been prevented? Probably not. It does not matter how much fire department you have or can possibly or economically provide, at some point in time and space events like this will happen. Non avoidable.

The insurance industry calls stuff like this "Acts Of God". Goes way back. Mother nature at times will bite us in the arse and let us know who is boss. This is one of those times. The first thing a rookie firefighter learns in the fire academy is that no matter how much you do, folks will die and property will be lost.

Sad, but there you have it.

pmclaine 10-10-2017 05:36 PM

Why does this occur?

Is this a "Do not touch the forest issue". People do not want management of debris and fire breaks to prevent these catastrophes? Don't people realize that fire is natures way of containing fire and by ensuring no set controlled burns that would otherwise be started by lightning the fire is all the worse when it comes.

Is it a budget issue? No money to manage the forest and too few resources to attack the fire before it gets out of hand.

Is it just too many houses in the woods issue?

Just a perfect storm fire, wind and right conditions?

I was hoping with the reports of California getting a surplus of precipitation the people of California could get a break.
Sorry for all that had losses. Scary pictures coming from that area.

ACampComLegacy 10-10-2017 06:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pmclaine (Post 1646232)

Is it just too many houses in the woods issue?

I'm thinking this ^

Wealthy [understandably] develop remote areas, to be away from urban riff-raff. Whatchagonnado???

DJEinConcord 10-10-2017 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lapriester (Post 1646209)
No sprinklers would have made a difference Sunday night. Winds were unprecedented gusting to 80 MPH and yes, most houses in Santa Rosa have tile or composite shingles. Nothing would have helped. Like a fire hurricane. The scary part was it was mostly urban with mini malls, pavement, parking lots, motels, industrial and residential. The fire went from 200 acres over the hill to SR to 20k in about 4 hours.

No kidding on the wind. I am just on the south side of the Carquinez Straits from Napa. Was relatively calm at dinner time, then rip roaring gusts around 10pm or so, then around midnight the power went out.

I went outside with my 2 meter ham radio trying in vain to find out any info with no replies to my radio calls. Only lights I saw were the antennas on Mt. Diablo. The repeater was working but not a soul replied. Meaning no emergency communications had really started.

There were calls for six ham radio volunteers at lunch yesterday. When they call out the fat old guys it means it will take awhile...

HB of CJ 10-10-2017 08:11 PM

Series Of Rare Converging Events ...
 
A unfortunate series of converging powerful events. Urban interface. That means too many people and properties in or near the woods. Too much population. Too much fire fuel. Lots of other stuff comes time on target. Drought. Fuel. Hurricane force wind gusts.

No practical fire preventive measures would have worked. The fire actually blew through the windows and walls of homes and businesses. Nothing would have stopped it. Nothing. The only way to live is to run as fast as you can as far as you can. That or die hard.

Roof sprinklers? Not in those conditions. The water spray would be instantly turned to steam which fires sometimes like. Even heavy 2" tip water monitors at 100 psi pressure flowing 1000+ gpm would be useless. It is hard to imagine such fire conditions. Sad.

Firefighters are only human. Lots of places they might have held their ground and made their stand but they would have burned and died. Even 50 fire companies and 200 men heavily concentrated with an ultimate water supply would have also just roasted. Wow. :(

DaveHH 10-10-2017 08:18 PM

I suspect that the people at Cal Fire have been cutting back on air tankers. One old time guy said on tv today that he has never seen so little resources to fight these fires. My friend says that the state has been hassling the air tanker folks about having recip engines and the aircraft in general. So the tanker people have just stopped doing this stuff in a lot of cases.
My two sons are being evacuated from Bennett Valley as we speak and coming over here. They had 75 houses burn out near Oakmont. and there just isn't any fire response. I've not seen any air tankers yet. I'd bet the loss just from Fountaingrove and Larkfield will be $1B. The State stepped in the $hit big time on this one. Multi million dollar wineries are being burned up with no response. You wonder how a city can just let 100 houses burn? We have lots of cops to stand around and hassle people, no shortage of that. Nobody to man a hose.

lapriester 10-10-2017 10:51 PM

In defense, Cal Fire repeatedly stated they had to commit all their ground forces trying to save lives as the fire spread. Besides, there was simply no safe or prudent way to fight a fire driven by 50-80 MPH winds. It would have only resulted in the deaths of the first responders. Believe me, I understand the frustration in so many houses lost but, even with massive tanker support during the Valley Fire it didn't slow the fire progress one bit. It was also wind driven but not nearly as bad as the winds this fire was driven by. Property must always be secondary to lives. Judging the response based on observations from a narrow individual area is both unfair and probably highly inaccurate. Those guys are fighting around 17 fires in N CA and there simply are not enough resources to fight them all. There are multiple fronts on fires totalling some 80,000 acres with no containment in sight. Some firefighters were on the line more than 24 hours after the fires started. Thank them instead of criticising their efforts. They spent most of that 24 hours pounding on doors downwind of the fires trying to alert people in the middle of the night to evacuate. I suspect hundreds of lives were saved so screw the property loss.

USAF Sarge 10-10-2017 11:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lapriester (Post 1646324)
In defense, Cal Fire repeatedly stated they had to commit all their ground forces trying to save lives as the fire spread. Besides, there was simply no safe or prudent way to fight a fire driven by 50-80 MPH winds. It would have only resulted in the deaths of the first responders. Believe me, I understand the frustration in so many houses lost but, even with massive tanker support during the Valley Fire it didn't slow the fire progress one bit. It was also wind driven but not nearly as bad as the winds this fire was driven by. Property must always be secondary to lives. Judging the response based on observations from a narrow individual area is both unfair and probably highly inaccurate. Those guys are fighting around 17 fires in N CA and there simply are not enough resources to fight them all. There are multiple fronts on fires totalling some 80,000 acres with no containment in sight. Some firefighters were on the line more than 24 hours after the fires started. Thank them instead of criticising their efforts. They spent most of that 24 hours pounding on doors downwind of the fires trying to alert people in the middle of the night to evacuate. I suspect hundreds of lives were saved so screw the property loss.

Thank you and very well said, it is so easy for people to Monday morning quarterback a situation without complete understanding of all the pertinent facts. Sure the houses lost are expensive, but what is the value of the lives saved? A building can be replaced, whereas a life cannot!

microwaveguy 10-10-2017 11:35 PM

This is going to be a long painful event. I am beginning to wonder how much of Santa Rosa is going to be left when this is done. Evac area was just expanded and still reporting 0% containment :cry:

DaveHH 10-11-2017 11:09 AM

I realize that the fire personnel had almost no chance to make headway in a disaster like this. As far as saving people's lives, most lives were saved by neighbors knocking or calling each other. That's how it was for me. This is the third day of this disaster and several friends have been watching how things are going. including visiting fire sites.
There was no local plan for a disaster of this size. There was a tremendous waste of resources with plenty of people driving around looking official and doing nothing. As an example, the 101 freeway was jammed, a parking lot, no lights worked at intersections across the area. There would be no one trying to control traffic flow at off ramps, just a bunch of civilians banging into each other and honking horns. A few hundred feet away would be an LEO standing around doing absolutely nothing. A small detail but multiply by 100 and see what you've got. Houses in areas where the fire had come through had survived and after 12 hrs or so would just start burning. Perfectly good undamaged homes just went up with no fire in the vicinity. Plenty of cops standing around yellow tape, nobody taking a couple of minutes to shut off the gas or put some water on a still burning foundation. My friend Mike, a Marine, observed people, NG, prisoners and Cal Fire doing close order drill in the Vets Memorial parking lot. Fire fighting vehicles parked all over. He said it looked like Camp Pendleton. Meanwhile 2 miles away the fire came over the mountain as the sun went down and the non existant air tanker support stopped for 12 hours. There were lots of my friends living up there and my family's house was squarely in the path. They had kicked everyone out of their houses by then "Saving Lives, not property".
We've had plenty of officials and congressmen holding press conferences to tell everyone what a swell job they are doing and at the same time making sure that everyone knows that their focus is on "Saving lives, not property". Well we damned sure know that. A plan would have helped a lot, but if there was one, it didn't go well. A person was observed throwing fireworks out of a moving vehicle into dry grass, starting even more fires. There are plenty of these mystery fires that just happened to start at places where there was no fire at all. There's probably a lot more to this than meets the eye.

howardhuge 10-11-2017 11:23 AM

Larry Nature who's in Control for the most part.... I can tell you that in 2014 Your POS Governor along with the Feds CUT the Air Tanker fleet from like 78 to 40 something.... they added the DC-10-30 which is a great airframe but slow to reload and $$$ to run. Air Tankers with Forest Service Ground troops can make a impact under normal Conditions.... this Aint Normal. I did a short tour in Chino with the Air Tanker service 30 years ago. Until recently most the Airframes were near the end of their life cycles.... they have bought a few Newer AC....a Few...States need to get serious about revamping the whole fleet. In addition as you may know.... Lots of these fires are Man Made.... deliberate acts...as in Terrorists.

parmel 10-11-2017 11:35 AM

Thoughts and prayers with all impacted by this tragedy.

microwaveguy 10-11-2017 01:22 PM

Interactive map that shows the burn area

https://maps.nwcg.gov/sa/#/%3F/38.4701/-122.6435/11

Satellite view of Santa Rosa burn area ...... note how some areas are burned and then others are untouched

https://api.mapbox.com/styles/v1/rob...-122.7372/16.6

Roadkingtrax 10-11-2017 01:22 PM

The situation sounds bad up there. I can hear echoes of those suffering through the events following the impact of Katrina. What else can the government do?

lapriester 10-11-2017 09:26 PM

Facts: Air tanker support - This is the biggest air tanker support operation in US history. It's concentrated on stopping the progress of the over 22 fires in progress. If you didn't see tankers in the area you are in, your area it is not a priority. Tonight may be a turning point...for the worse. High shifting winds are forecast after midnight up to 50 MPH shifting from the north. All bad news. 0 containment is still the norm. With changing wind direction the focus is again shifting to saving lives and evacuation efforts, not fire fighting. I'm up in Oregon, thank goodness, but family and friends are being impacted.

Officials stated at recent news conferences that it's going to get worse before it gets better. God!

DaveHH 10-12-2017 10:24 AM

I saw the 747 tanker up by Geyserville on TV. And a DC10. I think that the problem is that the 747 takes hours to turn around, just to fuel the plane and load the fire retardant. It is flying out of Sacramento, so it is 100 miles from the fires. Yesterday, they lit a backfire on the hill above the golf course and it burned a huge area, came down to withing 1/4M of my son's house and scared the crap out of everyone. I am back on the danger list because they think that the fires that just missed me on Monday are coming back. Two days ago they let the entire Bennett Ridge subdivision, 75 homes burn up with no response. There are three large lakes within a mile or two of that neighborhood. A chopper and bucket probably could have helped those people. There was an NG Blackhawk flying around taking News people and officials on tours of the disaster area. That could have done wonders for those 75 homes.

ordmm 10-12-2017 10:32 AM

RE; N744ST 747-400 Tanker flight ops, yesterday Wed. 10/12

Shows flight track and schedule (take off-landing times)

The website is quite current if you want to follow the ops (if you have registration number)-----the B200 spotter is REALLY busy....

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N744ST

The track log get really intense.....

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/.../KMCC/tracklog

ACampComLegacy 10-12-2017 10:47 AM

Where are those Mars Water Bombers?

22 tons of water pickup in 30 seconds (and probably a few fish, steamed on-site, for firemen to grub on while fire-fighting? )

Ohio Don 10-12-2017 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ACampComLegacy (Post 1646698)
Where are those Mars Water Bombers?

22 tons of water pickup in 30 seconds (and probably a few fish, steamed on-site, for firemen to grub on while fire-fighting? )

One is slated to go to a museum ( Philippine Mars ) and is out of service. Hawaii Mars hit a bottom of a lake and was undergoing repairs at last report.

lapriester 10-12-2017 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveHH (Post 1646690)
I saw the 747 tanker up by Geyserville on TV. And a DC10. I think that the problem is that the 747 takes hours to turn around, just to fuel the plane and load the fire retardant. It is flying out of Sacramento, so it is 100 miles from the fires. Yesterday, they lit a backfire on the hill above the golf course and it burned a huge area, came down to withing 1/4M of my son's house and scared the crap out of everyone. I am back on the danger list because they think that the fires that just missed me on Monday are coming back. Two days ago they let the entire Bennett Ridge subdivision, 75 homes burn up with no response. There are three large lakes within a mile or two of that neighborhood. A chopper and bucket probably could have helped those people. There was an NG Blackhawk flying around taking News people and officials on tours of the disaster area. That could have done wonders for those 75 homes.

I saw it in Lake County 2 years ago. It's all about priorities. If they think it can be saved they commit resources. If not, they use available resources where success is possible or where lives are in the most danger. I watched the entire valley below my house go up in a firestorm in 2 hours, hundreds of homes. Air tankers worked the perimeter to slow spread, they saved my neigborhood, but nothing could be done in the valley so they abandoned efforts there almost immediately. Waste of resources, waste of time, no chance to suppress or prevent loss, too hazardous for first responders o they moved on and let it burn to white ash. Funny how, in that case, you heard no monday morning quarterbacking. All you saw after people were allowed back in were signs on every street corner and many piles of white ash thanking the first responders for their efforts. People who lost their homes were walking in to local restaurants and buy entire crews breakfast, lunch and dinner.

My heart goes out to anyone who has suffered loss or who may still suffer loss in these horrific events. But, what isn't appropriate is criticising the efforts of the very people who put their lives on the line trying to save others. Note, my failure to mention property. It's not even secondary in nature. That's what, if you are in the least responsible, insurance is for.

If you didn't see firefighters or air tankers where you were, someone else needed them more. Time to realize that and move on with recovery. Based on how slow recovery has been in Lake County, starting early is critical to your success. Wasting time complaining on Forums or waiting on someone else to help is not in your best interest.


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