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-   -   The MANN ACCURACY DEVICE (http://forums.thecmp.org/showthread.php?t=71430)

VMFn542bob 03-16-2012 07:54 PM

The MANN ACCURACY DEVICE
 
The MANN ACCURACY DEVICE - What Is It ?"
a.k.a MANN Accuracy Rifle


I would like to revive an interest in the MANN Accuracy Device. I do so hoping that future purchasers of this rare and historical machine will appreciate it even more. I have no way of knowing how many unaltered MANN barrels still exist in the CMP inventory. Most purchasers see these as potentially accurate rifles but only if they are modified. I see them at the ultimate accuracy rifle as long as they are not modified. I own two of them and have no intent to destroy them as they were designed and hope other purchasers will follow me. Many threads on the MANN Device were lost when the old CMP Forum software crashed. A few new threads have been posted since then

The mystery of the MANN Accuracy Device explained.
http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com...allistics.html
Dr. Mann: Father of Ballistic Science by: Warren Sipe (1960)

Other references -
"The bullet's flight from powder to target" is a 384 page, 14.3 megabyte document by Dr. Franklin Weston Mann.
A PDF version can be read or downloaded from castpics.net at the following link :
NOTE : This a very large document that is best viewed after being downloaded to your computer hard drive. If you page through it from the Internet you will get bored very quickly waiting for the response.
http://castpics.net/subsite2/ClassicWorks/The_bullet_s_flight_from_powder_to_targe.pdf

Hatcher's Notebook - Julian S. Hatcher, Major General, U. S. Army, Retired in PDF (629 pages, 91.8 megabytes) see page 511
http://photos.imageevent.com/badgerdog/generalstorage/hatchersnotebook/Hatchers_Notebook_searchable.pdf

pwrshifter 04-07-2012 08:45 PM

Bob,
Excellent, 2 real good books to read. And yes like you i now have 2 mann accuracy devices, and i just picked up a couple of months ago a barrel from a mann accuracy device. My first one i bought was an abandon project from the group as i had stated in another thread and can be converted back to original, no drilling to the reciever, i turned it into a bench/ sniper rifle and won a f class/ prone match with it (200yd reduced targets).

http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-..._5084594_n.jpg

the other one i have is put away for a rainy day, more of a safe queen, now that i have a back up barrel. But if im lucky i might put close to a 100 or less thru it a year so the barrel should last me a life time. i am hoping this year that i will get a chance to shoot it at a physical 600yds. Now you had just given me 2 books that im going to have to find time to read(other then my usual transmission manuals), i read the article on mr. mann, very interesting biography on him and his life and interests. By the way what ever happened to the postal match that everyone was hyped up for and i dont think it ever happened.

captpete 04-08-2012 10:38 AM

OK - You've got me hooked. I started to skim through Dr Mann's Book - all I can say is WOW! The depth of experimentation is amazing!

Are Mann Devices still sold?

Luke42_02 04-08-2012 10:43 AM

Sold at the bottom of the page:

http://www.odcmp.com/Sales/miscellaneous.htm

edlmann 04-08-2012 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by captpete (Post 573558)
Are Mann Devices still sold?

Click here, go to bottom half of page.

http://www.odcmp.com/Sales/images/MannBarrel.jpg

kraigwy 04-08-2012 08:18 PM

I wonder how one would go about making this a "sticky"?

VMFn542bob 04-11-2012 11:17 AM

The MANN Accuracy Device for 5.56mm Nato
 
The MANN Accuracy Device for 5.56mm Nato Ammunition
Aerodynamic & Flight Dynamic Characteristics of the New Family of 5.56mm Nato Ammunition
A report on testing Lake City 5.56mm M855 (Ball) and M856 (Tracer) ammunition using the MANN Accuracy Device Kart-manufactured barrels.
http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA162133

Accuracy and Jump Measurements of the 5.56-mm M855 Cartridge - ARL-TR-5540 May 2011
The U.S. Army Research Laboratory (ARL) performed a jump test and analysis to evaluate the accuracy of the
M855 projectile when fired from the M4 weapon system, and from a Mann barrel for comparison.
http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA542434

kraigwy 04-11-2012 12:07 PM

Thanks for posting that, though I wished you would have waited 3 days. This might cost me more money.

Goldiver 04-14-2012 05:14 PM

Cool info, thanks!

Steve

kraigwy 04-15-2012 09:38 AM

The Remington Action on the Mann device doen't have a recoil lug.

How does that affect the device and how would one put it in a stock???

I don't want to do any modifications to the action/device itself.

VMFn542bob 04-15-2012 11:03 AM

A MANN Accuracy Device for the 7.62 x 54R
 
The 7.62◊54mmR is still in use by the Russian military but the "R" in the modern official C.I.P. (Permanent International Commission for Firearms Testing) designation (7.62 ◊ 54 R) stands for Rimmed, in line with standard C.I.P. designations.
This is one of many MANN barrels that will probably never be turned over the the CMP. A MANN barrel is a testing machine with many uses. I believe it is highly educational to see how MANN barrels are used so I will contunue to post relevant links on this subject.
-
Temperature Compensated Loading Curves for the 7.62 x 54R Armor Piercing Incendiary (API) Round
The purpose of this testing was to learn which variables were statistically significant in controlling the velocity of the 7.62 x 54R API round.
NAWCWD TM 8598 OCTOBER 2009
http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA510537

kraigwy 04-15-2012 11:26 AM

I find that interesting, regarding the temperature changing velocity. We know that every 15 degrees change in temperature changed you bullet impact 1 MOA.

I did some testing a while back regarding High Power rifle shooting. After the barrel/chamber got hot, the difference in velocity of the round if, for say you chambered the round while waiting for target repair (scoring and pasting) and loading the round after the target comes up and the instant before you shoot.

I don't know what I did with my notes, but I do remember there was a difference in velocity.

Thanks for posting that link, it kind of explains what I did.

VMFn542bob 04-15-2012 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kraigwy (Post 577944)
The Remington Action on the Mann device doen't have a recoil lug.

How does that affect the device and how would one put it in a stock???

I don't want to do any modifications to the action/device itself.

PM sent

kraigwy 04-16-2012 11:08 PM

I just found a pretty good description of the use of the Mann Device in Hatcher's "Textbook of Pistols and Revolvers", 1935.

I don't want to post the whole thing as I don't know who owns the copyright.

Anyway, a V shaped metal trough of steel is mounted on a concrete base. Elevation and Wind age screws are fixed to the trough.

A telescope is laid into the trough to get the trough "sighted in" then removed.

The heavy Mann Barrel (Hatcher calls it a cylindrical barrel) is laid in bottom of the V trough. Under recoil the Mann Barrel moves but the trough doesn't. For the next shot the Mann Barrel is laid back in the V, which automatically lines it up for the next shot.

The trigger is activated remotely of course.

Simple enough.

jerryjeff 04-18-2012 02:18 AM

Wow, that is some real interesting history. A real scientist dedicated to learning.

kraigwy 04-18-2012 08:29 AM

Yes, Doctor Mann decated his life trying to find out why, if everything is consistant, a two or more bullets wont go into the same hole down range.

Something we are all looking for.

Radtoy 09-04-2012 10:14 PM

So... How does it work?
 
Does the device come with an adequate receiver? Is it mostly a matter of finding a stock then mounting a scope on it? What would I need to set one set-up as a reliable rifle? It sounds like something to take to a 1000yd range and see what I can nail at different distances. :)

kraigwy 09-04-2012 11:32 PM

Depends on what action you have.

For my Remington Action, I put on a fiberglass stock. I couldn't inlet the barrel because the stock I found wasn't wide enough. I ended up having to cut it off just in front of the action. Looks rather silly but it works.

This is a temp. fix for me while I figure out what sort of vice I want to build to use the device as intended.

BUT, it shoots, Any thing you rest the barrel on such as aiming sticks, bags, etc should be placed as close to the action as possible. Taking that into consideration, I believe you can use it for a F-Class rifle. You'd want a better scope then I put on this one.

I wanted to use it to develope loads for High Power w/ my White Oak Upper. It does do that.

I suppose if you wanted you could build yourself a stock that would fit the barrel. I may do that some day.

http://photos.imageevent.com/kraigwy...in%20stock.JPG

VMFn542bob 09-05-2012 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Radtoy (Post 661199)
Does the device come with an adequate receiver? Is it mostly a matter of finding a stock then mounting a scope on it? What would I need to set one set-up as a reliable rifle? It sounds like something to take to a 1000yd range and see what I can nail at different distances. :)

Like Kraig said, it depends on what MANN rifle you have. His MANN rifle is rare, chambered for the 5.56◊45mm NATO (.223) and so far, it's the only one. Also his has a receiver that was made for attaching a scope.
The MANN rifles the CMP still has for sale I believe are all chambered for 7.62x51mm NATO (.308). They come with a receiver, probably a mixed variety of 1903-A3 manufacturers, and a bolt. The device has been headspaced for testing NATO ammunition (ZERO head space) and the bolt, will have the receiver serial number engraved on it (at least those I have seen that came from the CMP do).
1903-A3 receivers have a dove tail for a rear sight (the rear sight is not included with the MANN) but the dove tail is not appropriate for attaching any kind of scope that I know of. The rifle also comes with a sawed off scant stock, leaving only the pistol grip portion to embrace the receiver.
Keep in mind what this was used for and how it was used.
With exception to Kraigs unique 5.56 MANN, all of those who have turned these into a bench rifle have employed the services of a gun smith. In every case I know of the gun was altered to accept commercial ammunition and modifications were made to attach a scope and stock.
So far, the only MANN rifles I have heard of that were made into a bench rest rifle were the 30-06 MANN (no longer avaiable from the CMP), the 7.62x51mm NATO MANN currently available, and Kraigs 5.56mm MANN which be bought at the CMP Auction.
My MANN project takes a different approach.
There will be no gun smiths involved and no modifications made to the MANN.
It is a drop-it-in and shoot it approach.

VMFn542bob 10-22-2012 09:16 PM

Unusual MANN testing devices
 
The 40mm Grenade MANN Testing Platform
Development of a 40mm Mann Barrel System for both High and Low Velocity Ammunition
http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2009infantr...anelBriefs.pdf

25mm Bushmaster Gun Barrel Coatings MANN Testing Platform
Cannon Life Extension Using Explosive Bonding
Ta-10W Lined M242 25mm Bushmaster Barrel
http://www.asetsdefense.org/document...Campo%20EB.pdf
Technical Report ARMET-TR-08001
ENVIRONMENTAL ACCEPTABLE MEDIUM CALIBER AMMUNITION PERCUSSION PRIMERS
Michael Ellis - May 2008
ARMAMENT RESEARCH, DEVELOPMENT AND ENGINEERING CENTER
Munitions Engineering Technology Center
Picatinny Arsenal, New Jersey
http://www.scribd.com/doc/29703137/E...e-Primers-2008
Photo link
Fig. 22 - 25-mm Mann barrel test setup at ARDEC indoor test range
http://htmlimg3.scribdassets.com/50h...d174db0796.jpg

M2MikeGolf 03-17-2019 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VMFn542bob (Post 690032)
The 40mm Grenade MANN Testing Platform
Development of a 40mm Mann Barrel System for both High and Low Velocity Ammunition
http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2009infantr...anelBriefs.pdf

25mm Bushmaster Gun Barrel Coatings MANN Testing Platform
Cannon Life Extension Using Explosive Bonding
Ta-10W Lined M242 25mm Bushmaster Barrel
http://www.asetsdefense.org/document...Campo%20EB.pdf
Technical Report ARMET-TR-08001
ENVIRONMENTAL ACCEPTABLE MEDIUM CALIBER AMMUNITION PERCUSSION PRIMERS
Michael Ellis - May 2008
ARMAMENT RESEARCH, DEVELOPMENT AND ENGINEERING CENTER
Munitions Engineering Technology Center
Picatinny Arsenal, New Jersey
http://www.scribd.com/doc/29703137/E...e-Primers-2008
Photo link
Fig. 22 - 25-mm Mann barrel test setup at ARDEC indoor test range
http://htmlimg3.scribdassets.com/50h...d174db0796.jpg

I was really interested to see the M242 was included in this.

Iím a retired M2 Bradley Master Gunner. The M242 ďBushmasterĒ 25mm cannon is one of my favorite guns of all time; I spent a lot of time working in them and firing them. Itís a fascinating weapon, 1000 meters is considered short range for it. In fact, it is zeroed at 1200 meters. Itís accuracy compared to the M1 was never that great, though. The big problem with it as I could tell, was ammunition. The quality could vary greatly. Essentially (in my day) the M242 could fire armor piercing and high explosive ammunition. There were inert training rounds that replicated the trajectory of the real AP and HE. The training stuff quality varied terribly by lot numbers. Given that the ammo was cased in 30 round boxes, lots could be mixed in a basic load easily, and so identifying a bad lot was near impossible. The Army changed barrel designs in the 90s; they were shorter, heavier and were fluted. This actually seemed to help improve the accuracy.

The M242 was used by numerous vehicular systems, the M2/M3 Bradley, the USMC Lav-25, the coast Guard and I think a version of the Air Forces AC-130 used it (but Iím not sure). The M2/M3 and LAV used a 1.5 Ho motor to drive the chain which made it automatic to a max cyclic rate of 200 rounds per minute. I believe the CG puts a 10 HP motor on theirs and can get up to 600 rods per minute.

The Army has finally decided to replace the M242 with a 30mm variant after nearly 40 years of successful use.


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