* No flaming or insulting of other members. You will get one warning via a private message. Repeat offenses will result in being banned. (We are quite serious about this folks).
* Vendor bashing will not be tolerated. You will get one warning via a private message. Repeat offenses will result in being banned.
* When posting, try to use descriptive titles for your threads to enhance the searchability of the site. Thread titles such as "Help Me" or "Dang this sucks" should NOT be used. Instead try titles like 'Need Help with Sights', 'How to Perform Stock Refinish', or 'Vibration in Handguard". This will help other people search the site with better accuracy and make it easier for people to help you out.
* Everyone has a personal opinion and they will often differ from others. If you get into an argument over something, debate the issue, not the member. If you feel the need to get into a heated discussion with someone, send them a private message. Personal debates on the forum will not be tolerated.
* Do NOT post copyrighted material on this Forum without consent of the author. This could be from another website, or a book that you personally own. The owner/Admins of this site will not be held liable for any copyright infringement of this type, and as such, will prevent (to the best of our ability) it's posting in public. This is for the protection of ALL members.
* Do NOT post any messages that are obscene, vulgar, sexually-orientated, hateful, threatening, or otherwise violate any laws. These types of messages will not be tolerated. You will get one warning via a private message. Serious offenses may result in immediate permanent suspension. Repeat offenses will result in being permanently suspended.
* Avoid thread hi-jacking. Moderators will be looking for this and will more than likely split the topic if it gets too drastic, as well as take appropriate action where deemed necessary, to include deleting posts and/or enforcement action.
Please do not post the same question or post across multiple forums, or in the same thread. The best way to get the answers you are searching for is to post a clear single question in the appropriate forum and be patient, Replies will come. If you are in a hurry for a particular answer try using the search button or reading through replies to similar questions. It may just contain the information that you need. No need to post the same information again and again as this just clogs up threads/sub-forums.
Do not bump non-Marketplace threads as that can clutter the front page of a discussion forum. Posts bumping discussion threads will be deleted.
* Any members advertising their wares on the site without expressed permission will get banned. Personal items for sale in the classifieds are ok as long as the meet the criteria laid out in the site rules.
* Do not post any info, posts or threads regarding the process of going to the estore and artificially placing a large number of items in your cart simply for the purpose of seeing what inventory remains of an item carried on the estore!
This activity slows down the estore and can cause problems with it crashing, errors with people's orders, and inventory errors, particularly during periods of high demand/traffic.
Anyone making such posts on the forum will be warned once, then have their forum privileges suspended at least temporarily for a second violation. Further violations can result in permanent suspension.
* There will be no posting of links to, or copying information from listings on outside auctions/commercial sites, i.e. -- Gunbroker, Ebay, Armslist, Craigslist, Reddit, gun trader sites, etc, that are still active/live. We will not provide a platform for members to promote said auctions as there is no viable way to determine whether they or someone they know has a stake in the auction. Posts with this information will be removed. Continual violations will result in suspension of forum privileges. You may link to closed/completed auctions in the sake of education and learning.
* Users who post fake information, i.e. - name, location, in their profile, or otherwise provide/post false information/data about themselves will be instantly banned. Users who register multiple usernames will also be removed.
* Your account may be revoked at any time for any reason.
Generally, the following enforcement policy will apply:
1st offense - warning
2nd offense - banned for one week to six month
3rd offense - banned for one year
4th offense - banned permanently
** Depending on the nature of the offense/rule violation, first offense can result in ANY of the above enforcement actions.
ADDITIONAL RULES, TO INCLUDE MARKETPLACE/CLASSIFIED AD RULES:
1. Profile Requirements
To start a sale, buy or trade thread anywhere in the Marketplace, your Profile must contain:
A. Your FIRST and LAST name as well as your STATE of residence. Your profile privacy settings must be set to at least allow registered users the ability to view your profile info, i.e. - Not set to "Friends only."
B. You must "enable receive email and PM’s" in your Control panel if you intend to buy or sell.
Additionally, you must have a valid email address listed in your registration profile (which can only be viewed by moderators/admin in the vBulletin master page).
Users with obvious fake names, or using false names in their profile will be permanently removed from the forum without warning. PLEASE NOTE: When a member has failed to put their full names and location in their profile, their ads will be deleted WITHOUT NOTICE. You are responsible enough to be involved in firearm activity, so you can be responsible enough to read and understand the forum rules. The posted rules ARE your notice as they are posted throughout the forum. Threads/ads will be restored once a member has updated their profile with first and last name, and state.
2. The Marketplace is intended SOLELY for the mutual benefit of forum members as a resource to support each other's collecting and/or shooting goals.
It is NOT intended for, and will NOT be used by members as a repeated, for-profit venture/operation. This includes:
A. Purchasing items from members on the forum, then posting them for sale at a markup/profit on other commercial sites, i.e. – eBay, Gunbroker, etc.
B. Reselling items at a considerable markup that were recently purchased from CMP.
Members found to have clearly abused this policy will lose the ability to post in and use the Marketplace, and potentially have their forum privileges suspended, temporarily or permanently.
3. You may only list personally owned items, and/or request/WTB items for yourself. “Selling (or buying) this for a friend/family member” ads, and 3rd-party sales/purchases are prohibited.
Additionally, NO posting or linking to listings on eBay, Craigslist, Gunbroker, Reddit, or other outside auction/commercial sites. We will not have the items placed here also. List your product here, try to sell it here, then take it to eBay, Craigslist, Gunbroker, auction-arms, etc.
4. There will be no “auction style” selling here…If you post an item for sale and it says anything like "I will take the highest offer" it will be removed.
We ask that you list your item on just one forum, so there is not confusion and/or issues with an item being sold on another forum when someone attempts to purchase it here. If you do list and sell on another forum, it is your responsibility to immediately update your ad on our forum…if you do not, your privilege to post in the Marketplace and even the forum itself may be suspended, at least temporarily.
NOTE REGARDING 1911 PISTOLS PURCHASED FROM CMP: If you are considering selling a 1911/1911A1 you acquired directly from CMP, you MUST obtain approval from CMP1911ADMIN before listing it on the forum as purchasers of these weapons are not allowed to resell them as a condition of the purchase. You may reach him via PM or email: [email protected]
5. Vendors (or people selling large quantities of the same item as part of a commercial venture) must first contact a moderator or admin.
6. Omission of information is also known as fraud. It is wholly the responsibility of the person listing an item to describe it ACCURATELY and TRUTHFULLY.
Example: If you are selling a rifle stock that has a 9 inch crack in it you need to disclose that information to the buyer. Do not describe the item or tell the buyer that the stock has "light scratches" only.
If we determine that you defraud a member by failing to disclose facts about your items, your access to this section will be restricted and you may be permanently banned from the forum.
7. CLASSIFIED AD REQUIREMENTS
A. Briefly describe your item in the title, along with WTS, WTT or WTB.
B. We do not have any rules regarding notification of a purchase or trade in an ad...it can be accomplished via a post on the thread, a PM, an email, a phone call, a pigeon carrier, etc. However, if you set the terms of your sale, you must follow them! We do not require or enforce any conditions of purchase; however, if a member violates their own terms then they are subject to at least suspension from the Marketplace section. For example: If you say, "First 'I'll take it' gets it," and sell to someone via PM or email without updating your ad and someone posts they'll take it, that's on you. We will not be party to a dispute, but you WILL lose your privilege to post in the Marketplace as a minimum since you failed to follow your own conditions.
C. You must list a price, and make it easily visible, not just lost in the description. Ads without a price will be deleted. It is ok to list a price and OBO (or best offer); however, no auction-style listings
D. As noted in item #4, provide ALL and ACCURATE details. i.e color, size, caliber, year, make, model, condition, defects, etc
E. Post pictures, or at least the links to them. If you are unable to post pics, then make them available via e-mail.
F. List shipping, pick-up or delivery options for the buyer, as well as cost.
G. Be sure to mark your ad as "SOLD" once the items are sold.
8. Do not bump ads older than 90 days without moderator approval. Ads older than 90 days will be locked if they get bumped.
9. Do not bump an ad more than once within a 24-hour period. Ads bumped multiple times within 24 hours will be locked or deleted. Members who continually do this will have their ads locked or deleted, and will lose your privilege to post in the Marketplace.
10. Remove previous bump posts so as to keep the size of the threads to a minimum. Nobody wants to have to search through 4+ pages of "Bump" or "ttt" posts simply to find information on the item listed.
If not removed, mods will remove them and/or delete the thread if it gets out of hand.
11. If you commit to buy or sell, please contact the seller or buyer within 24 hours with a PM or email to make arrangements.
12. If an item is sold, please mark the thread as such. This will help eliminate the old threads coming back up, as well as help those looking for specific items.
13. For WTB items anywhere in the Marketplace:
- Only respond to a WTB ad if you possess the requested item or have specific knowledge of that item’s availability. For example, do not post, “Check eBay” or “Check Gunbroker.”
- Once you have found/purchased the item(s) desired, delete the thread so as to not waste other members' time and allow for other threads to have visibility.
14. Keep the classified threads clean of extraneous/fluff comments and questions, regardless of how innocent or praiseworthy. This prevents derailing the thread and generating wasteful, opinionated discussions, as well as surreptitious bumping of threads.
If you have a technical or knowledge question relating to a listed item, start a new thread or search and add to an existing thread.
If you want to thank or praise a seller or item, DON'T do it in the sale thread as it unnecessarily bumps a stale thread, and said comments will be deleted. Instead, do the person the courtesy of posting in the Buyer/Seller Feedback section here: http://forums.thecmp.org/forumdisplay.php?f=81
Basically, if you don't have a question DIRECTLY related to a sale/trade/purchase of a specific thread, don't post! And this particularly applies to stomping a member’s ad concerning their asking price as there is a tendency to post negative replies when someone lists an item for sale that others consider overpriced.
We will not tolerate members stomping another member's ad concerning their asking price.
This also includes posting low-ball offers. If you want to make an offer lower than the asking price, even if it states OBO, do it via PM or email.
If an item is sold and the listing member deleted the price (which is their prerogative) and you want to know what the price was, do NOT post in the thread…send the member a PM.
Those who continually stomp or hijack other member's ads will face temporary, and even permanent suspension of their forum privileges.
15. No duplicate or multiple threads in different sections for the same item. Pick one section, the most applicable, and post there. Additional duplicate threads will be deleted.
16. You may not use the signature block function to solicit purchases, trades and/or sales. That is why we have the Marketplace...post a thread with your specific WTB, WTS, WTT ad.
You may have up to two lines stating you are looking or searching for a particular rifle/weapon and serial number.
As with individual posts, signature blocks/lines are subject to the same forum rules and will be handled accordingly if they violate any forum rules, policies/procedures or take up too much room of a post.
OTHER TIPS/GUIDELINES
- Buyers and Sellers should verify each other’s identity before sending money and/or products. If possible, get each other’s phone number and have a quick conversation to confirm the transaction details.
- As a suggestion: sellers should consider using delivery confirmation to avoid conflicts from buyers; saying they never received the products.
- Buyers, get to know the seller a little before you blindly send cash. If something does not seem right; it probably isn't. If something seems too good to be true; it probably is. Contact a moderator or report a thread/post that appears to be a scam.
- Respect fellow members. This section is a great place to support/help out fellow members and occasionally make new friends. Please be respectful to your fellow members. Maybe try selling here to a member instead of eBay, maybe save them a buck or two. If you have any questions, problems or concerns feel free to contact a moderator or admin.
- We do not require members to keep ads, or keep a listing price in the thread. It is your ad, so you are free to delete it at your discretion, as well as remove the asking price if you so desire. If someone is curious about the price for what an item sold, contact the seller via PM…do NOT post in thread.
- Lastly, don't forget the <b>Buyer/Seller Feedback section</b> http://forums.thecmp.org/forumdisplay.php?f=81
Be sure to express a good or bad experience with your buyer or seller, and let others know what to expect. Also be sure to check there for a member if you are concerned BEFORE you buy.
MODERATION RULES/ENFORCEMENT
1. All spammers get banned instantly and permanently.
2. Inappropriate or out of hand threads shall be closed with or without reason posted for the closure or deleted at the discretion of the Mods/Admins.
3. If you cannot follow the rules set forth, your posts may be deleted, removed, or edited by the Moderators.
4. If you repeatedly do not follow the rules set forth, you will be banned from this section or from the CMP Forum for any length of time from 2 days to permanently, at the discretion of the Moderators.
NOTE: These rules can change at any time. Administrators and Moderators have the right to make any decision that fits the website and its users.
DISCLAIMER
The CMP, any of its staff and forum administrators/moderators assume NO liability or responsibility for Marketplace transactions. Members will use at their own risk, and CMP will not be responsible for any disputes or claims between members involving a transaction.
The Civilian Marksmanship Program forum is intended primarily to be a technically-oriented website for professional, courteous, and intellectual discussion of CMP matches, activities, firearms and related events. We are an online community founded by enthusiasts, for enthusiasts, of all ages and walks of life. Remember that we have youth CMP participants who view this site. Please enjoy your stay and with your help, we can make the CMP Forums safe for all.
The opinions and posts on this site do not necessarily reflect those of The Civilian Marksmanship Program.
If you have any questions, please contact a Moderator
Never saw a Unertl on an AR so I thought I'd try it on my adult son's match rifle build. Fabricated the mounts from Picatinny Rail 11mm adapters and 3/8" scope blocks. Used it as a class to our Junior Small-borers on scope mounting and setup. Here's a 17-year-old banging a 12" steel plate offhand at 200yds ten for ten.
Nice.....cool and different. I am going to mount my old Lyman 75 target sights on my AR that gets little use and use it in 200yd off hand local fun match.
Your mounts are too far apart. The Unertl and Lyman scopes of that style were designed for mounts on 7 1/4'' centers, otherwise the adjustments won't give the correct adjustments per click.
Jon
I guess one would have to wonder why, when so many better optics choices would be more appropriate. That, and one of the mounts being that far forward on a free float hand guard is ripe for all kinds of accuracy inconsistencies. Even with appropriate optics the one thing you never do is place a scope mount on a free float HG. Perhaps not so many problems in off hand but all kinds of problems are possible in prone or other supported positions. FF HG's always have some flex and that flex will transmit directly to the front scope mount. Far more so with the mount that far forward.
It looks cool, done well, and I'm sure the talk of the matches but not very practical for precision or match shooting.
Your mounts are too far apart. The Unertl and Lyman scopes of that style were designed for mounts on 7 1/4'' centers, otherwise the adjustments won't give the correct adjustments per click.
Jon
Simple. The further apart the mounts, the finer the adjustment. There is absolutely no advantage to pure 1/4-minute clicks, when Anschutz and other sights are progressing to 1/12-minute clicks to center groups on that .4-inch 10-ring on the 50M International target.
Center to center 7.2" will give you 1/4 minute per click adjustments with an original Unertl scope and mounts.
I guess one would have to wonder why, when so many better optics choices would be more appropriate. That, and one of the mounts being that far forward on a free float hand guard is ripe for all kinds of accuracy inconsistencies. Even with appropriate optics the one thing you never do is place a scope mount on a free float HG. Perhaps not so many problems in off hand but all kinds of problems are possible in prone or other supported positions. FF HG's always have some flex and that flex will transmit directly to the front scope mount. Far more so with the mount that far forward.
It looks cool, done well, and I'm sure the talk of the matches but not very practical for precision or match shooting.
Point taken. This was a training aid for a class. We'll see in practice, but most Unertl mounts span the barrel and forward receiver ring, and I tend to doubt that this thick aluminum Midwest handguard will flex sufficiently under sling pressure to make one iota of difference. Perhaps with a small-bore at 1150fps in followthrough, but unlikely with a 5.56 at 3200fps.
Regarding optics, there are no shortage of vintage Kahles, Zeiss, S&B's and Unertls that compare nicely side by side with the most expensive modern scopes. Better? Maybe not. But every bit as good.
Repeatability? Try squaring a box sometime with a Unertl versus the modern, internally-adjusted scope of your choice. I strongly recommend leaving your wallet in your pocket.
Maybe a dumb question, I haven't seen mounts like that before... But how do you adjust the elevation and windage?
The old-school scopes were pure telescopes with a rear mount that featured micrometer clicks on the rear mount ala a high-end aperture rear sight. This one is confusing in appearance because it is a "dehorned" mount without the obvious turrets. But the adjustment knobs are there, none the less, they are just not obvious. Here's a turreted Unertl on an Annie 1407 as an illustration:
Like the man said: Never saw a Unertl on an AR so I thought I'd try it.
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"Tolerance and apathy are the last virtues of a dying society." Aristotle
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Google advanced search: http://www.google.com/advanced_search?hl=en
In "site or domain" put: forums.thecmp.org
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The old-school scopes were pure telescopes with a rear mount that featured micrometer clicks on the rear mount ala a high-end aperture rear sight. This one is confusing in appearance because it is a "dehorned" mount without the obvious turrets. But the adjustment knobs are there, none the less, they are just not obvious. Here's a turreted Unertl on an Annie 1407 as an illustration:
Guess I've never seen a dehorned one... What's the point?
No AR free float HG is a stable location for a front scope mount. I have Midwest on 3 of my AR's and they will flex with nothing but the bipod under them. Sling up tight and it will flex more than you think. Even the mounting system on Midwest HG's in insecure enough where I would not rely on them for mouting a precision optic mount on. It's a LocTited friction fit clamped on the barrel nut by two screws torqued to 35 in/lbs. They are only on my uppers because they came on them when I bought them. I will admit though, of all the FF HG's I have on AR's they are the heaviest. That's just another reason I dislike them and wouldn't use one on a personal build.
You did a great job on the setup and it definately has a coolness factor. Never seen such a thing done before. I don't question the quality of the optic at all. Their rep speaks for itself. There are just so many more applicable choices for an AR where the mounts are placed in the most appropriate location.....the receiver rail. HG rails are meant for back up sights and rail mounted tactacool crap that doesn't relate to pinpoint accuracy.
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