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  #31  
Old 08-14-2019, 05:27 PM
RC20 RC20 is offline
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That's pretty interesting. Any idea the reason behind that?? Seems odd they would single out a particular brand like that.
Once commonality was achieved there was no reason W would not have been shipped.
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  #32  
Old 08-14-2019, 05:29 PM
RC20 RC20 is offline
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Vladivostok was also an entry into Russia post WWI with US supporting an alliance of 13 nations involved, Japan very prominently.

Book written about that by the name of
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  #33  
Old 08-14-2019, 05:50 PM
navyrifleman navyrifleman is offline
 
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US rifles and other weapons lost in battle and in the course of overseas operations would have been reported by the unit to which they had been assigned as "missing". That did not necessarily mean that they were totally destroyed, only that they were no longer in the possession of men of that unit.

Arms were routinely picked up from battlefields or when inoperable and worked on by armorers in depot level repair units. These repaired weapons were turned around and reissued to newly arrived troops or to soldiers who had lost or turned in their weapon.

The famous new correspondent Ernie Pyle visited one of those repair units and wrote a very good article about them.

While it would appear that many weapons were lost, I wonder how many of those reported lost were actually turned around and reissued? Do the records account for this?
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  #34  
Old 08-15-2019, 08:33 AM
navyrifleman navyrifleman is offline
 
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Here is a pretty comprehensive article about the US Model 1916 Mosin-Nagant, and its use during the 1918-1919 Polar Bear expedition operations. It goes into detail regarding its production, numbers, history, etc. It includes a number of photos and links to related sites (unfortunately many no longer working).

http://texastradingpost.com/militaria/usmosin.html

Last edited by navyrifleman; 08-15-2019 at 08:37 AM.
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  #35  
Old 08-15-2019, 11:31 AM
dman514 dman514 is offline
 
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Originally Posted by cplnorton View Post
Everything I'm reading so far says all WRA's were not to be shipped to France at least till the end of July 1918. I have not read all the final months docs but from what I have read so far its unlikely the ban was ever lifted.

I keep on seeing it over and over that WRA was stateside only and WRA was not happy because of it

That is highly possible. I have seen WRA 1917's from around April and May of 1918 that did not get the star mark. It could be that they decided to drop the mark since no WRAs were to be shipped overseas.
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  #36  
Old 08-15-2019, 04:22 PM
mikeneligh mikeneligh is offline
 
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My 1903 is serial number 681153 and has a 4/19 barrel. Makes me wonder if it made it "over there". Hummm...
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  #37  
Old 08-15-2019, 04:51 PM
SpearheadOrd SpearheadOrd is offline
 
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I doubt they dropped the mark for that reason. The mark was to identify rifles that were built before parts standardization had been established. Ordinance would have dictated its use until the standards were met.
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  #38  
Old 08-15-2019, 08:01 PM
SmokeEaterPilot SmokeEaterPilot is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by navyrifleman View Post
Here is a pretty comprehensive article about the US Model 1916 Mosin-Nagant, and its use during the 1918-1919 Polar Bear expedition operations. It goes into detail regarding its production, numbers, history, etc. It includes a number of photos and links to related sites (unfortunately many no longer working).

http://texastradingpost.com/militaria/usmosin.html
In this portion of the article there are several errors. At least from what is discussed in the correspondence of the Chief of Ordnance.

U.S. Army Training and National Guard Rifles



1) Westinghouse and Remington may have been in financial hard times, but that's not ever discussed when they are being purchased. Saving them from bankruptcy does not appear to be a motivator, if it is, its not recorded. They do discuss the need to buy rifles for home use so M1917s and M1903s can be freed up for the front lines.

2) The rifles were purchased at $30.00 per unit. 200,000 units were purchased from Westinghouse and 78,950 from Remington. Crozier authorized and allocated $6,000,000 for Westinghouse and $2,368,500 for Remington for the rifles.

3) I believe the designation "U.S. Magazine Rifle calibre 7.62mm Model of 1916" is a collector made up term. Even when finalizing the contract in early January 1918, the rifles are simply referred to as "Russian Rifles" or "Russian Rifle Special." Post WWI when the rifles were being prepared for longterm storage or being sold they refer to them again as "Russian Rifles."

Last edited by SmokeEaterPilot; 08-15-2019 at 10:50 PM.
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  #39  
Old 08-15-2019, 09:24 PM
Firstflabn Firstflabn is online now
 
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Nice work again, Steve. You know how much I enjoy beancounts.

This WD cable seems to tell the AEF that the Winchester hold is off. Doesn't say when that changed, but I presume this is news to the AEF.





Do you suppose the storage depot had to open every Win crate to check barrel date? If so, then as a practical matter, wouldn't that preclude shipping them in bulk to France (but not already issued rifles from being packed and shipped with units). Who knows, maybe they stenciled something on the crate certifying that the Winnies inside met the interchangeability requirement. Maybe that's where the Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval came from.
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  #40  
Old 08-16-2019, 12:43 AM
cplnorton cplnorton is offline
 
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I'm going to have to go back and find it. The WRA doc I posted earlier I found in two different locations at the Archives. At the first location I found it, there was also a accompanying doc stating all the WRA's are on hold because they are being shipped to the US Marine Corps.

All of the AEF was switching over to the M1917. Otherwise the M1903 was being phased out from combat and was going to more training/stateside use only. While the M1917 would be the rifle storming the trenches so to speak.

Well the Marines were going to get nothing but WRA M1917's.

So I still think till at least around the end of July none of the WRA's had shipped overseas. Or at least that is what my memory of the doc was. I quickly glanced it over before I took a pic of it and moved on.

Also the other variable in this. I see in the Marine docs that M1917's were being used for training like at boot camps, but it's really hard to pinpoint how many were going overseas. It's very disputed on both sides in the Marine WWI circle if the Marine M1917's ever went over. I see the argument on both sides as pretty valid.

I think the Marines were supposed to get around 50,000 WRA M1917's. I don't know if they ever got that many. I see in 1920 when they turned back in their M1917's, I see a count of 2000 crates of them they turned back in. Which those should have been 10 rifles per. But I don't know if that is the only time they shipped a shipment back.

They did turn all in by 1920 I have that recorded several locations. But they might have have several shipments they turned in 1920, and I only found docs of the one shipment.

Let me see if I can go back and find that one doc. My problem is now I have to somehow organize all I have found.

I spent half of the summer at the Archives and this is what I did. I Set up a stand with a camera. I Pulled 16 boxes at a time and opened each folder. I quickly would scan the doc for keywords, if I saw something, I took a pic and flipped the page. So I was moving really fast trying to copy as many as I could. So I was actually photographing about 4000 pages a day there and going thru many times that.

So I have to somehow now have to organize it all so I can find everything. Plus put in order so it makes sense as it's always sort of jumbled in the Archives also you never find the full story in one location. You find a little in one spot and a little in another.

But I'm still pretty sure till around the time of that WRA doc I posted earlier that none of the WRA's had shipped to the AEF. They were still trying to get enough to supply to the MAriens and they were holding all shipments of them to go straight to the Marines.

Oh on your comment on opening every box. Yeah I've seen mentions many times they were supposed to open boxes and label on the outside what was in it. Like makers and such. I just can't remember the date. To be honest I didn't look them over that much on this topic. Just snapped a pic and moved on. So I will keep an eye out as I process the docs for that as well.

But let me see if I can find that hold on WRA doc and I will post it as soon as I find it. It might take me some time to find it but I will post it when I do.

Thanks for you doc as well my friend.
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