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  #21  
Old 08-12-2017, 03:13 PM
Gewehr43 Gewehr43 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamie View Post
Articles like this are rather pointless, as someone above pointed out, it's like comparing the '27 Yankees with the '017 Dodgers.

If you have been fortunate enough to have talked to a WW2 combat infantryman like my HS history teacher, they all say that the Germans were well trained and highly disciplined.
Just as in WW1, the US Army expanded from very small ill equipped garrison force to a large well equipped combined arms force, capable of effectively fighting across the oceans, in a relatively short period of time.

Even the most arrogant Germans and Japanese acknowledged that the US Army learned quickly and did not back down.
True but some of these leadership questions are still relevant today.

How many times, now in 2017, has the word "micro-manager" been used or the idea that "upper management" doesn't understand "whats going on" and makes poor decisions?

Well my comments to Steve about the WW2 German Soldier are about just that. They did not have the Officers to micro-manage nor did they train that way....................

Being able to solve problems and get the job done at the lowest level means it will get done rapidly and effectively.

That is a great idea now, just as it was in 1945.
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  #22  
Old 08-12-2017, 03:19 PM
Gewehr43 Gewehr43 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve9 View Post
The quotes...are from the article...cited by the OP.
Cool............... hopefully my comments help explain your questions.

Is that a Krag he's carrying?
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  #23  
Old 08-12-2017, 04:59 PM
BryanJ BryanJ is offline
 
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The Nazi regime, that brutalized their own citizens, soldiers, and neighboring countries, may have produced a more disciplined military through fear and intimidation. And, their experienced military, that committed unspeakable attrocities, and which benefitted from some technological advantages, had much success from 1939 - 1942. But, their early success was unsustainable for many reasons discussed in countless books. But to take their early success and somehow use it as evidence to suggest that the German military was superior to our own during WWII, is a poor attempt to re-write history.
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  #24  
Old 08-12-2017, 05:04 PM
la Fiere la Fiere is offline
 
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I have read most, if not all, of Max Hastings' books and, in my view, he has made a career of minimizing US and British effectiveness and exaggerating that of the Nazis. And while he is certainly entitled to his opinion, it's important to recognize that his is just one opinion among many.

I suppose the argument could be made that the Germans were generally better disciplined and operated under a stricter control system. Read "The Forgotten Soldier" for some insight into this. However, discipline and regimentation by themselves won't do it. John Wooden's Bruins won plenty of ball games, but so did John Madden's Raiders.

The Germans may have been well disciplined, but that didn't always equate to effectiveness on the battlefield. They did plenty of stupid things (read about WXYZ / Harrison Summers for example).

The argument of German technical superiority is shaky. While an individual Tiger tank is certainly better than an individual Sherman (look up Villers Bocage for evidence of that) that's generally not how they fought. Only 14.5% of Sherman losses were due to enemy tank fire. How does Hastings' machine gun superiority argument hold up when an MG-42 position is more accurately viewed as a fixed and soft target for one of the almost 50,000 Shermans we were able to flood the battlefield with?

The Germans were certainly a tough opponent who often fought outnumbered, under-supplied, and without air cover. But they didn't have a monopoly on toughness, and I don't think there's any empirical basis to suggest they were, on average, any better than the US.

Last edited by la Fiere; 08-12-2017 at 05:15 PM. Reason: fixed typo
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  #25  
Old 08-12-2017, 05:21 PM
USAF Sarge USAF Sarge is offline
 
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I agree with the "They weren't unbeatable" statements. That said though had Germany not attacked Russia how much longer would the war in Europe had raged, or how different would the outcome had been?

A united Germany/Russian campaign against the Allies would have been brutal, and one that I'm thankful never came to be.
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  #26  
Old 08-12-2017, 05:46 PM
Steve9 Steve9 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gewehr43 View Post
Cool............... hopefully my comments help explain your questions.

Is that a Krag he's carrying?
I cannot say that your comments, on my comments (on an
article you didn't read), were especially enlightening...lol!

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  #27  
Old 08-12-2017, 05:54 PM
Steve9 Steve9 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BryanJ View Post
But to take their early success and somehow use it as evidence to suggest that the German military was superior to our own during WWII, is a poor attempt to re-write history.
I concur.

Hey, even the Italian Army have some success in Ethiopia!

What were the old ratios for success--for offense, 6-to-1
and defense, 3-to-1?

Get some historic analytic types to break down the US/GE
ratios on the notable operations, if there's really a concern
on "who'd mo bettuh".
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  #28  
Old 08-12-2017, 06:42 PM
Gewehr43 Gewehr43 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve9 View Post
I cannot say that your comments, on my comments (on an
article you didn't read), were especially enlightening...lol!

Yes...... so I read the article and yes, you misunderstood the points he was trying to make.

But "Combat" and "Hogans Heroes" are historically accurate enough.......... they can answer any questions you might have............
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  #29  
Old 08-12-2017, 06:48 PM
Steve9 Steve9 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gewehr43 View Post
Yes...... so I read the article and yes, you misunderstood the points he was trying to make.

But "Combat" and "Hogans Heroes" are historically accurate enough.......... they can answer any questions you might have............
Well, Mr. Gewehr, it's already evident who's heart you wear,
on your sleeve.
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  #30  
Old 08-12-2017, 06:51 PM
Gewehr43 Gewehr43 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BryanJ View Post
The Nazi regime, that brutalized their own citizens, soldiers, and neighboring countries, may have produced a more disciplined military through fear and intimidation. And, their experienced military, that committed unspeakable attrocities, and which benefitted from some technological advantages, had much success from 1939 - 1942. But, their early success was unsustainable for many reasons discussed in countless books. But to take their early success and somehow use it as evidence to suggest that the German military was superior to our own during WWII, is a poor attempt to re-write history.
The article isn't an attempt to rewrite history. No where does the Author question any of the war crimes they committed. The fact who won the war is obvious too.

He discusses the war thru out to even 1945. He mentions the US Forces in the Pacific as well.

Examining the WW2 German Army doesn't condone it or legitimize it, instead there are some things they did better than us. That bears looking at.

Not to mention, after the war we copied many of the Technology and lessons learned from them................ Our Rocket program, assault rifles, the concept of Combined Arms, the role of the MG in Infantry units etc............ they are all a result of lessons we learned from the Germans.......

Just as we have looked at how and why it was possible for them to commit all those horrible atrocities against mankind. There was good reason for us to hold the Nurenburg trials. So there were things they did FAR worse than we ever could have.
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Last edited by Gewehr43; 08-12-2017 at 07:00 PM.
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