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  #11  
Old 11-23-2020, 10:22 PM
jason60chev jason60chev is offline
 
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Location: Tampa, Florida
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The photo link didn't work, for me. I went to that website and haven't found the pic.

I have a 1928 serialed '03 which came with a stippled butt plate. I have no other information on this rifle. Wonder if it is USMC?

Quote:
Originally Posted by champ0608 View Post
This is from the USMCweaponry website:

"The 7 that both rifles have in the magazine cutoff well indicates the year they would have left Springfield Armory, both being sent to the Marines in the 1937 shipment of National Match rifles"

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  #12  
Old 11-23-2020, 11:27 PM
John Beard John Beard is online now
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jason60chev View Post
So, you are saying that the stock on this 1937 National Match rifle is a 1940 stock and not correct for a 1937 NM rifle????

https://imgur.com/a/bhjenoy

I would like to see these documents. Can someone on here, reading this thread upload some copies/documents?

Thanks.
I cannot speak for champ0608, but I can speak with absolute certainty that the stock in your picture is indeed a 1940 stock and was not the original stock on a 1937 National Match rifle. Indeed, the stock is not likely original to a National Match rifle at all.

I'll leave the document uploading privilege to someone else if they have them.

Stay safe!

J.B.
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  #13  
Old 11-24-2020, 12:05 AM
jason60chev jason60chev is offline
 
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Hmmmmm.......I have not come across this matter before tonight.
Here are more pics of that 1937 NM Rifle 1509876....the rifle is NOT mine:

I know any markings could have been added later:

Butt has Drawing number and rifle serial stamped.
Hand guard has Drawing number

https://imgur.com/a/RYktFNv

I am not disputing anything, I am just trying to learn as well as find the attributing printed reference for the features. I can take John's word on most anything M1903, but I am the type who wants to see the reference for things.

At any rate, it is an interesting topic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Beard View Post
I cannot speak for champ0608, but I can speak with absolute certainty that the stock in your picture is indeed a 1940 stock and was not the original stock on a 1937 National Match rifle. Indeed, the stock is not likely original to a National Match rifle at all.

I'll leave the document uploading privilege to someone else if they have them.

Stay safe!

J.B.
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  #14  
Old 11-24-2020, 08:36 AM
champ0608 champ0608 is online now
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Arizona
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jason60chev View Post
Hmmmmm.......I have not come across this matter before tonight.
Here are more pics of that 1937 NM Rifle 1509876....the rifle is NOT mine:

I know any markings could have been added later:

Butt has Drawing number and rifle serial stamped.
Hand guard has Drawing number

https://imgur.com/a/RYktFNv

I am not disputing anything, I am just trying to learn as well as find the attributing printed reference for the features. I can take John's word on most anything M1903, but I am the type who wants to see the reference for things.

At any rate, it is an interesting topic.
Jason I briefly watched that rifle too. I recall the "electro-pencil" serial number on the bolt was also a total amateur job. That was the first red-flag for me. Springfield had only a few people numbering the bolts. They have very specific hand-writing that becomes easy to spot when you start to look for it. And it seems to change with a couple different eras. For example, the real 1.52s have different hand-writing on the bolt than the 1.49s as though a new employee took over the numbering for the 1939 batch.

Also, according to the SRS list, there were some national match serial numbers in the 1.505 range, then the numbers start to completely drop off. There are no 1.507-1.509s listed at all. The 1.510s were almost all sold as bare receivers.

That rifle was a barreled receiver with a star gauge barrel that someone decided should be a National Match rifle. It was attractive. I even considered bidding on it in the $1200 range, but it was definitely a malicious fake.

The picture I posted is form the Unertl Sniper section of the website. You can find it on this page: https://usmcweaponry.com/usmc-nation...-sniper-rifle/

If you're not familiar with the website, everything posted there is backed by reference material found at the National Archives by the site owner and a team of others.

Last edited by champ0608; 11-24-2020 at 08:49 AM.
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  #15  
Old 11-24-2020, 01:59 PM
jason60chev jason60chev is offline
 
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Here is the bolt etching on my SRS documented 1.4Mil NM 1903A1, for comparison.

https://imgur.com/a/53lCgeE


Quote:
Originally Posted by champ0608 View Post
Jason I briefly watched that rifle too. I recall the "electro-pencil" serial number on the bolt was also a total amateur job. That was the first red-flag for me. Springfield had only a few people numbering the bolts. They have very specific hand-writing that becomes easy to spot when you start to look for it. And it seems to change with a couple different eras. For example, the real 1.52s have different hand-writing on the bolt than the 1.49s as though a new employee took over the numbering for the 1939 batch.

Also, according to the SRS list, there were some national match serial numbers in the 1.505 range, then the numbers start to completely drop off. There are no 1.507-1.509s listed at all. The 1.510s were almost all sold as bare receivers.

That rifle was a barreled receiver with a star gauge barrel that someone decided should be a National Match rifle. It was attractive. I even considered bidding on it in the $1200 range, but it was definitely a malicious fake.

The picture I posted is form the Unertl Sniper section of the website. You can find it on this page: https://usmcweaponry.com/usmc-nation...-sniper-rifle/

If you're not familiar with the website, everything posted there is backed by reference material found at the National Archives by the site owner and a team of others.
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  #16  
Old 11-24-2020, 04:33 PM
John Beard John Beard is online now
 
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Location: Sweet Home Alabama
Posts: 3,435
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jason60chev View Post
Hmmmmm.......I have not come across this matter before tonight.
Here are more pics of that 1937 NM Rifle 1509876....the rifle is NOT mine:

I know any markings could have been added later:

Butt has Drawing number and rifle serial stamped.
Hand guard has Drawing number

https://imgur.com/a/RYktFNv

I am not disputing anything, I am just trying to learn as well as find the attributing printed reference for the features. I can take John's word on most anything M1903, but I am the type who wants to see the reference for things.

At any rate, it is an interesting topic.
The pictures do not provide sufficient coverage and clarity for me to make any conclusive evaluation of the rifle and stock. If the stock is authentic to the rifle, then the stock should exhibit an inspection stamp and proof mark. I can see neither. I am also suspicious that the handguard may not be authentic, but again, the pictures do not provide sufficient coverage or clarity.

Stay safe!

J.B.
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  #17  
Old 11-24-2020, 04:52 PM
champ0608 champ0608 is online now
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Arizona
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jason60chev View Post
Here is the bolt etching on my SRS documented 1.4Mil NM 1903A1, for comparison.

https://imgur.com/a/53lCgeE
Your bolt serial number looks just like the 1.49s that I've owned and studied extensively. I'm certain the same person was responsible for the job in 1932 as 1937.

Another tell-tale feature is the way the polishing is different in the area just above the safety lug. Yours is naturally correct. That detail is very hard to fake; faked National Match rifles always have the entire bolt polished in a uniform manner because that's what you end up with when using a dremel and sand paper.

Your rifle is extremely nice. You should definitely be proud to own it.

Jamie

Last edited by champ0608; 11-24-2020 at 04:56 PM.
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  #18  
Old 11-24-2020, 05:25 PM
jason60chev jason60chev is offline
 
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That kills me on some sales postings....especially something unique and higher priced.....that seller might provide one or two pics or not enough pics for the potential buyer to fully evaluate the item. Guess they figure, if someone is really interested and wants detailed pics, they'll ask. But sometimes, the seller will not provide additional pictures. UGH!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Beard View Post
The pictures do not provide sufficient coverage and clarity for me to make any conclusive evaluation of the rifle and stock. If the stock is authentic to the rifle, then the stock should exhibit an inspection stamp and proof mark. I can see neither. I am also suspicious that the handguard may not be authentic, but again, the pictures do not provide sufficient coverage or clarity.

Stay safe!

J.B.
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