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  #111  
Old 05-08-2013, 01:31 PM
thebearpack thebearpack is offline
 
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Originally Posted by olbadger View Post
How appropriate..."Lords of the Board". Great reference to the lurking forum trolls. One learns to manually or mechanically filter out postings and responses of certain posters. Manners do count.
Yep, this thread sure made a lot of d-bags out themselves, didn't it? I may have to use the "ignore" feature for the first time on this forum.

But three good things came of this train wreck anyway: the OP is happy, Aim proved that they're a good company, and all of us peons now know the definition of a "real shooter".
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  #112  
Old 05-08-2013, 11:29 PM
Mwieczorek Mwieczorek is offline
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Originally Posted by thebearpack View Post
Yep, this thread sure made a lot of d-bags out themselves, didn't it? I may have to use the "ignore" feature for the first time on this forum.

But three good things came of this train wreck anyway: the OP is happy, Aim proved that they're a good company, and all of us peons now know the definition of a "real shooter".
Yeah, so I was trolling the guy by that point. After all the herp and derp he spouted, I figured he deserved to get trolled a little bit. Doesn't mean that I *actually* think of myself as a "real shooter". I'm actually just as lousy as most of the rest on this board.

As for this whole thread, the OP's mind was made up before his first post. He was buying what he thought was an investment grade rifle at a shooter rifle price, and got upset when he realized that it maybe wasn't the investment he thought it was. Some of us honestly tried to help him early on (me included). I gave up on him when I realized that this was just about money, and not really any problem with the rifle. He came on here blaming his issues on AIM supposedly being disingenuous with their rifle description. When it was pointed out to him that 5 minutes with Google would have told him all he needed to know BEFORE he made his purchase, he got snarky. The comments about the safety of the rifle were what irked me. Funny how his internet search couldn't come up with the fact that these rifles were built on recovered drill rifles, but he could latch right on to an apocryphal report about some dude's drill rifle blowing up on him because he put a double charge of pistol powder in his reduced load (but it's still somehow the rifle's fault). There is nothing inherrently unsafe about a recovered drill rifle. If they're built properly, they function fine and shoot great. They'll never be worth as much as an unmolested rifle, and THAT was the OP's whole issue. He felt that he overpayed for the gun, and was looking for any reason to justify sending it back.

If you guys think AIM is overcharging for those rifles, add up what it costs to build a M1903A3 type rifle with a new barrel. I'd like to see anyone set up shop and build a decent shooting M1903A3 at the price point that AIM (or Gibbs, or anyone else) is selling them. It's fairly difficult, even if you zero out the labor costs. There isn't much room in there for profit when paying for the parts, labor, and overhead to build them. It's expensive to maintain an FFL, and even more expensive to buy a liability policy for a gun manufacturer. The shop that builds them needs to make a little money to stay in business, the distributor needs to make a little money to stay in business too. I honestly don't know how they build them and sell them as cheap as they do.

You can find decent looking M1903A3's at gun shows, but how many have barrels that are better off as tomato stakes? I've passed on a handful this year because the barrels weren't up to par. Barrel condition is worth A LOT. The gun can have all the right stamps and cartouches, but if the barrel is toast, it's not worth much. Even the guys that "just collect" keep a set of ME and TE gages around, they aren't about to get stuck with a gun that swallows a M2 round to the case neck because they know it will be a hard sell later.

Matt
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  #113  
Old 05-09-2013, 08:33 AM
capone capone is offline
 
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Very well said, Matt.
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  #114  
Old 05-09-2013, 11:18 AM
Duce Duce is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mwieczorek View Post
Funny how his internet search couldn't come up with the fact that these rifles were built on recovered drill rifles, but he could latch right on to an apocryphal report about some dude's drill rifle blowing up on him because he put a double charge of pistol powder in his reduced load (but it's still somehow the rifle's fault).
Too funny!
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  #115  
Old 05-09-2013, 01:05 PM
Ak49shooter Ak49shooter is offline
 
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"If you guys think AIM is overcharging for those rifles, add up what it costs to build a M1903A3 type rifle with a new barrel. I'd like to see anyone set up shop and build a decent shooting M1903A3 at the price point that AIM (or Gibbs, or anyone else) is selling them. It's fairly difficult, even if you zero out the labor costs. There isn't much room in there for profit when paying for the parts, labor, and overhead to build them. It's expensive to maintain an FFL, and even more expensive to buy a liability policy for a gun manufacturer. The shop that builds them needs to make a little money to stay in business, the distributor needs to make a little money to stay in business too. I honestly don't know how they build them and sell them as cheap as they do."

Matt,

Other than this part quoted, I tend to agree with your take.

These repo's regardless of the flavor all came from the Cmp scrap auction a few years ago. They were sold by the pallet with hundreds of rifles per and if I'm not mistaken, average price worked out to somewhere around $20 bucks per rifle. Now, a new barrel (criterion), a repo stock, and a mix of hardware from the salvaged parts along with some chinese parts leaves a fairly good amount of profit. I don't have any issue with how much anyone makes profit wise, but I can see how they can build them fairly inexpensively. I would also say that there are a lot of parts showing up from these salvaged rifles lots, so more "profit". Personally, I think the price of a genuine A3 should be more than a repo, but hey, that's just my opinion.

Kurt
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  #116  
Old 05-09-2013, 01:13 PM
dnmccoy dnmccoy is offline
 
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Im contemplating the sniper model for the vintage sniper
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  #117  
Old 05-09-2013, 10:50 PM
Mwieczorek Mwieczorek is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ak49shooter View Post
"If you guys think AIM is overcharging for those rifles, add up what it costs to build a M1903A3 type rifle with a new barrel. I'd like to see anyone set up shop and build a decent shooting M1903A3 at the price point that AIM (or Gibbs, or anyone else) is selling them. It's fairly difficult, even if you zero out the labor costs. There isn't much room in there for profit when paying for the parts, labor, and overhead to build them. It's expensive to maintain an FFL, and even more expensive to buy a liability policy for a gun manufacturer. The shop that builds them needs to make a little money to stay in business, the distributor needs to make a little money to stay in business too. I honestly don't know how they build them and sell them as cheap as they do."

Matt,

Other than this part quoted, I tend to agree with your take.

These repo's regardless of the flavor all came from the Cmp scrap auction a few years ago. They were sold by the pallet with hundreds of rifles per and if I'm not mistaken, average price worked out to somewhere around $20 bucks per rifle. Now, a new barrel (criterion), a repo stock, and a mix of hardware from the salvaged parts along with some chinese parts leaves a fairly good amount of profit. I don't have any issue with how much anyone makes profit wise, but I can see how they can build them fairly inexpensively. I would also say that there are a lot of parts showing up from these salvaged rifles lots, so more "profit". Personally, I think the price of a genuine A3 should be more than a repo, but hey, that's just my opinion.

Kurt
I know what you're saying, and I agree that the price of an unmolested M1903A3 *should* be higher than these recovered rifles. It may take the market some time to "right" itself. Or maybe there just isn't that much demand for these guns. The kids are all into black rifles and AK's, seems that the old guys are the only ones that show any love for wood and steel. The repro guns from AIM and others have to be looked at more like buying a car or a tool. A new car loses thousands of dollars in value the instant we drive it off the lot, but we don't mind because we're generally not buying them as investments. These rifles are not going to be worth what you paid for them either, but these rifles really are aimed at guys who are going to use them as tools (i.e. they are going to take them to matches and compete with them). I know I don't look at any of my competition guns as investment pieces. They are tools of the trade, and I am "using them up" as time goes on. My goal is to have them thoroughly worn out by the time I kick the bucket. I'd feel bad if I did that with a really nice, collectible rifle. With a new barrel and stock, for a guy getting into shooting the Springfield match, these rifles are hard to beat.

A good part of my job is understanding manufacturing costs (mainly so I can estimate them for future business). It doesn't seem like it should cost much money to build the stuff that we build in this country, but costs add up QUICK. You mentioned parts costs, but nothing about direct and indirect labor costs and overhead costs. There is a decent amount of labor that goes into tearing down the rifle, milling off the welds, removing the old barrel, degreasing, blasting, and re-parkerizing the parts, installing the new barrel, reaming the chamber, and re-assembling the rifle. The guys doing the work have to get paid, the supervisor and shop manager have to get paid, the folks working the front office ordering parts and paying bills have to get paid. The loans for the shop equipment have to get paid. The rent on the building has to get paid. The owner gets whatever is left over. An hour of labor will probably add $100 of cost to the finished product. They probably have at least one and a half man hours, if not more, in every rifle.

I did a "back of the napkin" cost estimate on this whole thing. Mainly because I'm an engineer and the process of manufacturing stuff fascinates me. (I know, I need to get out more...)

I'd say nobody is getting fat off these rifles. If anything, they're keeping the lights on and maybe giving their employees a small Christmas bonus. Maybe the owner ends up with enough to buy himself a shiny new Cadillac. Does it mean that the rifles are actually *worth* $795? Maybe not, but it does mean that that's about the lowest they can sell them for and stay in business. And they are selling, so their pricing must not be too far off.

Matt
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  #118  
Old 05-10-2013, 01:50 AM
Ak49shooter Ak49shooter is offline
 
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Matt, I didn't mention the labor as it's rather difficult to nail down the parts. I say this because a stripped down drill rifles parts will go in a dozen directions.
For example...
Say you buy 100k of them at $20 bucks per to your door. A percentage will be junk, another percentage will be treasure and the rest will fall in-between. Now, I know for certain that there are a lot of Mark 1's for instance showing up in the gun shops, bought from places like Sarco. These are being offered for around $700 and up depending on barrel condition so that's one of the dozen directions. Then, you look at stocks, the better ones commanding $80-$125, the Junkers around $50 + or -, again from outfits like Sarco. Look around and there are many selling the drill receivers at $119 to $179, again, give or take. Then you have all the metal, bolts, bands, butt plates, and all the other bits and pieces.
The point is, you sell off all the low end, upper end and a chunk of the parts and you reduce your costs for the ones you keep and turn them into $795 and up guns. 100k guns is a conservative number and there are people that could put a more accurate number out. If you end up with 30% bought and paid for from the sale of all the rest, you have a pretty nice place to start. Gibbs bought Parker Hale along with all the equipment and a fair parts inventory and at a good price. They also own Navy Arms and Old Western Scrounger so it's not a single product co. Aim sells the Gibbs rifles as does someone else, can't think of them off hand. Gibbs had made a niche for themselves making other repo's so the infrastructure is in place and spread out, i.e. this is just another product line. My guess is you could conceivably build that rifle with labor for between $450 and $500
What relationship all these outfits such as Sarco, Gibbs, Aim, Northridge etc all have I don’t know, but I suspect they swap and sell a lot to each other.
I couldn’t agree more with you on all the other observations you mention, young ones, black guns, old guys…lol, the market these repos are addressing etc. well said.

Kurt
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  #119  
Old 05-10-2013, 11:12 AM
chuckindenver chuckindenver is offline
 
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new repro barrel 189.00
repro c stock 165.00
handguard. 35.00
bolt. 50.00
cost of the drill rifle action...20.00
scope. 150.00
base and rings 50.00
thats just the price of the parts..not the labor..
i wont add the cost of finishing, as they paint the guns.
in parts alone they have close to 659.00 in each rifle.
maybe a little less, since they buy parts in bulk lots.
if they sell them for 1,100.00 then they make a bit of cash..not rich..but if they sell a few. its more then they would off a new Remington 700.
had they used better quality parts they would have had a better end product, but the retail price would have been closer to 1500.00 or more.
example..new 2 groove G.I. barrels, U.S. made bases and rings.
U.S. or Italian made repro stocks..
spent a bit more time on the rifle removing the welds ect, and used better quality bolts.
its human nature to pay for the cheaper rifle, and then later spend more money making it right.
then to spend more money upfront for something that works right from the start.
nothing wrong with AIMS and GIBBS rifles for the money..
however.. like anything else in life..you get what you pay for.
if you want a match winning rifle, thats targeted, and ready to go..it will cost you more then what they sell for.
keep in mind, the average buyer end user wont ever shoot a match with his or her rifle, they cant afford a real A4. so this is a way to have a replica that by most peoples standards, is a close to the real deal as you can get
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  #120  
Old 05-10-2013, 08:36 PM
capone capone is offline
 
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I spend a few hours on the drill rifles i rebuild. carefully grinding and polishing the welds. I dont redo any of the parkerizing. cause most of the ones i got had almost perfect finish. I just touch up the weld spots with paint. nos Gi barrels, all Gi replacment parts..I do it as a hobby and not for profit.
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