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  #21  
Old 03-03-2014, 07:34 PM
fartblossom1953 fartblossom1953 is offline
 
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Location: Newport N.C.
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The Marines here still qual with the iron sights out to 500. The point made earlier was when moving to a 30 cal today in our same corps. Not too many standard 14's out there to play with. Army is still more friendly to optics with the 5.56 platforms.
  #22  
Old 03-03-2014, 08:14 PM
Mike D Mike D is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: South Carolina
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I learned of the switch to optics just a few weeks ago. Neighbor just got out. He said no iron sights, whatsoever. All done with ACOG out to 500. "But don't they instruct on how to use them for back up?", I asked. No. No back up irons used.

I believe I would install my own.

Mike
  #23  
Old 03-03-2014, 08:31 PM
horticattleman horticattleman is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Cajun Country
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Heartbreaking I tell you. What's next Marines not being able to polish their boots...oh wait they already don't have to do that

My wifes cousin came home right after he got out of MCT for a family funeral. He was going to wear his dress blues. Problem was he had to first ask me how to put on the belt for his uniform. No big deal but he had no black dress shoes so I stopped at the surplus store and bought him some. Leather ones. I tell him they're on me but he'll have to polish em himself. (with the polish and brushes I bought him) and he tells me...get this... They never learned how to polish leather in boot camp or MCT! They're service boots take no polish and they're dress shoes are plastic. Seriously? I'm no old salt either. I only got out in 2002.

My point is sometimes you have to rely on the old fashioned way and you had better know how to rely on it. I always took pride in knowing that our Beloved Corps could do that and this is upsetting.
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  #24  
Old 03-04-2014, 03:03 AM
Gewehr43 Gewehr43 is offline
 
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Location: Denver, CO
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I'm not going to get in the middle of you guys showing your pride for the Corps but one thing:

- The current optics are reliable, accurate and very useful. It's great to learn the basics of marksmanship and shoot iron sights but the USMC optics are better, they:
-allow for range finding.
-allow for target ID.
-allow for rapid adjustments in firing at different distances. The sight has a BDC built in.
-can be used in low light/ darkness.
-can be integrated with the other parts of the weapon system.

Also the AR rifle can and is shot out to 1000yds. Its done at Camp Perry. There is a reason, at Camp Perry- home of iron sight marksmanship for a long time now- that the AR system is king. Not the M1903, M1 or M14.
  #25  
Old 03-04-2014, 08:16 AM
cannonshooter cannonshooter is offline
 
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Location: New York
Posts: 292
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Gewehr,
Optics maybe wonderful and very reliable now but they still break, with iron sights as a backup and if you do not have the knowledge of Basic Marksmanship with Iron sights than you now have less effective weapon system cause the user doesnt know how to use them. Give a Marine that has been taught to shoot Iron sights out to 500yds they can then take those iron sights and put fire down on the enemy. Without being taught sight alignment and sight picture and relying on a optical sight the Marine is not being taught proper Marksmanship. Optics are an aid. The fact that the AR platform can and is be used out to 1000 yds with iron sights at Camp Perry is not disputed. The Max effective range on a point target is 500 yds and the max effective range on an area target is 800 yds and that is with iron sights with the M16a2 service when I was in from 88-93. We had the fundamentals of Marksmanship beaten into us and this was before we went to the rifle range to qual. Then yearly we went back to the range and had it refreshed. Im all for optics that aid in better and more rapid target engagement but they are not the end all be all. How long will it be before an optics failure, lack of backup iron sights and the lack of Iron sight knowledge gets a Marine killed?. I have seen this type of thinking before in the F/A-18 Hornets. It is a fly by wire A/C if both flight control computers crap out or you have a dual hyd failure the only thing the pilot can do is punch out as the only mechanical flight control is the horizontal stabilator. You can not fly an A/C and more importantly you can not land one with only a horizontal stabilator. Redundancy is a good thing.
Mack
  #26  
Old 03-04-2014, 03:02 PM
TDP0311 TDP0311 is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: NW Ohio
Posts: 1,077
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Marine Infantry still is well trained with how to use their back up iron sights, which are very nice and fit right behind the RCO. Knights Armament, who makes our DM rifles and rail systems has a very good USMC back up iron sight system, with adjustments out to 600 meters.

The RCO has found itself very effective at eliminating threats at long ranges in the last decade of war, and the marksman of the same famed Marine infantry units at Belleau Wood are still more than capable of the shooting feats of their forefathers. Today, the build up cycle and training of Marines is longer and more strenuous then ever before, and it definitely shows on the battlefield.
  #27  
Old 03-04-2014, 06:42 PM
Gewehr43 Gewehr43 is offline
 
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Location: Denver, CO
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Cannon:
-I'm not a Marine but I beleive they still have BUIS so...........

-The ACOG, if you've used one, are as rugged as any iron sight so if you break the ACOG, you'll be breaking your irons too.....

-In order to use an optic, you still need most of the markship skills that you use for irons.

-How many Marines have been killed by using iron sights that cant be seen in low to no light situations?

The reality is that Optics are the primary sight now and irons are the back up. That is why they are called Back Up Iron Sights.

They are part of a weapon system that has been embraced and accepted by the USMC for alot of good reasons..........
  #28  
Old 03-04-2014, 07:43 PM
fartblossom1953 fartblossom1953 is offline
 
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Location: Newport N.C.
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So what are they going to do with service rifle matches in NRA. My eyes aren't as good as they used to be so I guess my AR scores will come up when they allow the currently used sight? Years back we shot against some Brit's with the SA80 and scope and it helped them.
  #29  
Old 03-04-2014, 11:50 PM
jgaynor jgaynor is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: NNJ
Posts: 1,329
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USMC approached Bausch and Lomb May 28, 1951 about the feasibility of developing a 2X optical sight for the M1 Rifle.
I don't know if the project went anywhere but the Corps was not as hide bound as some would have you think
  #30  
Old 03-06-2014, 11:21 AM
missilegeek missilegeek is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: AL
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fartblossom1953 View Post
So what are they going to do with service rifle matches in NRA. My eyes aren't as good as they used to be so I guess my AR scores will come up when they allow the currently used sight? Years back we shot against some Brit's with the SA80 and scope and it helped them.
NRA and CMP Service Rifle really doesn't have much to do with what is currently issued.
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