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  #51  
Old 03-20-2017, 07:33 PM
rickgman rickgman is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mustang82 View Post
The shooting sports will not grow by making them easier, they grow by developing an interest, instilling a desire to excel, and offering opportunities to do that. This is becoming increasingly difficult in a society that gives awards for participation and does not encourage achievement and excellence. Probably why youth participation in most sports has been on a steady decline for several years.
This discussion has sort of gotten off track from Saluki's original post but my personal opinion is that only sports that are interesting to the target audience maintain their current level of participation or grow. Let me use bullseye pistol competition as an example. The CMP Rules Committee apparently thought that opening up the definition of a "service pistol" would enhance participation. I don't think that the equipment rules were the problem. In my opinion, the problem is that many young people perceive bullseye pistol competition as boring, slow moving and it does not enhance the sort of skills that they find important. Now look at the popularity of three gun events. They are increasing in popularity mainly because they are perceived as being interesting. Now if we look toward service rifle competition, many young people don't appreciate lengthy matches and don't see them as being as action packed as such events as 3 gun matches. I still think there is lots of benefits associated with shooting service rifles on KD ranges but I do think the format needs some improvement. I think that electronic targets will help a great deal but it is a good idea to look at other changes as well and not dismiss them out of hand just because they are not consistent with classic service rifle competition. If we were to really adhere to classical service rifle competition, we would not see rifles in competition that were only vaguely like true service rifles in appearance. We would not see specialized ammo being used at different ranges - some of which can't even be loaded in a magazine. We wouldn't see shooting jackets that provide support to the shooter. We also wouldn't see slings being used that were never issued with the current service rifle. I could go on and on but I think you all get the idea. Things have already changed and perhaps we need to at least listen to what someone says rather than just dismiss it. Just my two cents worth.
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  #52  
Old 03-22-2017, 06:59 AM
Ryan V Ryan V is offline
 
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If the original poster thinks prep. time for rapids is wasted when you have to stand , he needs to re think how he is doing it.

To be fair, I have not shot a lot of leg matches or CMP nationals the past few years because of life changes, but when i do i like the extra challenge of having to find the position and NPA back. I most definitely do not think i am important enough to ask for changes to the LEG and National matches.

If i had a request it would be that with the new CMP sanctioning that will compete with NRA at the State and local match levels, let us keep the 2 sighters there. I am fine with the extra challenges of no sighters at leg matches and CMP nationals. I think to compete with NRA for sanctioning you need to give the shooters what they want. To me that is sighers.
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  #53  
Old 03-22-2017, 08:23 AM
ceresco ceresco is offline
 
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It's a game. It has rules that you follow if you want to play. Beats golf and bowling where you don't learn any useful skills..... Actually, I'm sure that punching holes in a black circle wouldn't be considered a useful skill by many.... Good Shooting. ...

Last edited by ceresco; 03-22-2017 at 08:27 AM.
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  #54  
Old 03-22-2017, 10:41 AM
aloreman aloreman is offline
 
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Wont be long and we will all be using bipods for prone and shooting sticks for offhand.
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  #55  
Old 03-22-2017, 10:57 AM
missilegeek missilegeek is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aloreman View Post
Wont be long and we will all be using bipods for prone and shooting sticks for offhand.
Shooting sticks are obsolete:

http://centermassinc.com/sniper-weapon-tripod-kit

Then, combine that with a next generation Trackingpoint-like system with wind transducers down range.... Heck, in a previous life I worked on guided bullets...

The rifle will be carted to the line and it'll take the shot.
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Service Rifle: 1884-2015 RIP.
Service Pistol: 1903-2014

Last edited by missilegeek; 03-22-2017 at 11:00 AM.
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  #56  
Old 03-23-2017, 10:51 AM
NMC_EXP NMC_EXP is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by missilegeek View Post
Shooting sticks are obsolete:

http://centermassinc.com/sniper-weapon-tripod-kit

Then, combine that with a next generation Trackingpoint-like system with wind transducers down range.... Heck, in a previous life I worked on guided bullets...

The rifle will be carted to the line and it'll take the shot.
The logical end point to all this is that an actual rifle will be obsolete for competition.

Instead, there will be a first person target shooter app on their e-gadget and they will "compete" from the comfort of the couch.

Just think how participation would grow because there would be no more of this nonsense:

--Burning vacation time, driving for hours and wasting high priced gas to get to a match.
--Humping heavy gear up and down a range.
--Sunburn
--Heat stroke
--Rain soaked gear
--Bites from mosquitoes, chiggers and ticks
--Doing chin-ups on balky target carriers
--Interminable waiting while other folks get to pull triggers
--Hours at the reloading bench just so you can turn $0.50 per round worth of material into noise, smoke, a hole in a piece of paper and a divot in the impact berm.
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“After all is said and done, successful rifle shooting on the range is nothing more than first finding a rifle and lot of ammunition which will do precisely the same thing shot after shot, and then developing the same skill in the rifleman.” ~ Capt. E. C. Crossman (Book of the Springfield)
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  #57  
Old 03-23-2017, 12:05 PM
Carriec Carriec is offline
 
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Some "enlightened" folks believe that is progress. They are welcome to it.
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  #58  
Old 03-23-2017, 12:27 PM
Gewehr43 Gewehr43 is offline
 
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Rick:
No one is saying to anyone......... "Don't write a letter to the CMP"........ If Saluki or anyone else wants to to write them with suggestions......... go ahead.
That said.......... he posted here to get a response......... and he got them.

My concern about your suggestions isn't to, "not dismiss them out of hand just because they are not consistent with classic service rifle competition."

But instead........ his suggestions won't accomplish the stated goal............

Removing the "moving" won't make things to quicker....... it's that simple.
(Instead things like electronic targets WILL).

You repeatedly have stated a way to get more shooters involved (like kids) is to make the matches "action packed"............ Well by removing the "moving" you're taking away any "action" there is............

Which is the opposite of the whole idea you want to push forward.


Lastly: You've said several times this idea that SR has drifted away from the "classic service rifle competition" by using slings, jackets etc. You then take another step and say, in effect, that since we've stepped away with those things.......... why not the "moving" thing as well?

I disagree:
-Instead of "throwing in the towel" and saying "Oh whatever" that without good cause we MAINTAIN what ever we can of the original courses of fire.

-I've explained repeatedly how the "moving" is a CURRENT, necessary, valid skill to have in these competitions. Not some archaic idea from years past.

-When SR started the M1903 and Krag were the primary SR. Even back then the M1903 was "helped" and not shot strictly as a "off-the-rack" rifle:

Even back then special "National Match" ammunition was used, special sights were used (ie The JP OHare sight and USMC sight), shooting jackets and M1907 slings (The Kerr no-buckle and M1 sling weren't used)............

So the idea that specialty gear was a recent introduction is not accurate.

(I mean......... you do realize that the sling everyone uses is an almost EXACT copy of the original M1907 sling? Which I'm guessing was adapted in........ 1907? .......... so it is 110yrs old and still moving along? ...............)

Again.......... Saluki posted his thoughts and got feedback....... if he wishes to use that feed back to adjust his thoughts............... So be it but either way......... Write the letter.............
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Last edited by Gewehr43; 03-23-2017 at 12:34 PM.
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  #59  
Old 03-23-2017, 12:55 PM
rickgman rickgman is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gewehr43 View Post
-When SR started the M1903 and Krag were the primary SR. Even back then the M1903 was "helped" and not shot strictly as a "off-the-rack" rifle:

[I]Even back then special "National Match" ammunition was used, special sights were used (ie The JP OHare sight and USMC sight), shooting jackets and M1907 slings (The Kerr no-buckle and M1 sling weren't used)............
Gewehr, the NM 1903's were actually a standard service rifle with specially selected (and sometimes polished) parts. NM ammo was simply the standard service rifle ammo that was assembled using higher quality processes. The USMC sights were still issue sights and the M1907 sling was the standard issue sling of the time. We are a long way from that now. Rick
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  #60  
Old 03-23-2017, 01:58 PM
missilegeek missilegeek is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NMC_EXP View Post
Instead, there will be a first person target shooter app on their e-gadget and they will "compete" from the comfort of the couch.
Well, there was the NRA Highpower video game a long time ago....
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Service Pistol: 1903-2014
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