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  #41  
Old 03-19-2017, 08:21 AM
mustang82 mustang82 is offline
 
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Most shooting disciplines have evolved from addressing a need to improve marksmanship skills. Some of these may be of questionable relevance today but have survived as sports. The rules provide a standard and level (as possible) playing field for all competitors. Rules and standards provide a means of measurement. Achieving success within a standard set of rules is the goal. Shooting outside of any (other than basic safety) rules is called “plinking” not competition. Allowing Biathletes to use snowmobiles might be interesting and fun but would not be Biathlon. Using a rest in Precision Pistol (Bullseye) would make it very easy but again it would not be the same, and I doubt would make it more popular. The shooting sports will not grow by making them easier, they grow by developing an interest, instilling a desire to excel, and offering opportunities to do that. This is becoming increasingly difficult in a society that gives awards for participation and does not encourage achievement and excellence. Probably why youth participation in most sports has been on a steady decline for several years.
Exceptions made to make activities and sports inclusive to injured or disabled participants are “reasonable accommodations” and within the spirit of the rules.
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  #42  
Old 03-19-2017, 09:46 AM
rickgman rickgman is online now
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gewehr43 View Post
Young/old....... Creedmoor carts or trash cans....... they showed up.
And yes, they moved from standing to prone.........
Well, not really. Some had a "medical excuse". So I guess it really isn't so important to the substance or the spirit of the event after all. I think that's what Saluki is saying. Personally I don't think it's a big deal one way or the other but he does make a a valid point. Eliminating that requirement simplifies the match and does save little time.

He's also right about some folks not following instructions properly on the line. I've witnessed it, too. In fact, when Saluki and I were shooting the last Vintage Sniper Rifle Match, twice we witnessed discharges during the prep period. Obviously some folks do have a problem with following instructions since they weren't even suppose to load their rifles and certainly not commence firing. Now I don't think that folks moving around on the line with a loaded weapon is a major safety issue as long as the weapons are pointed down range, Saluki is correct - there is still an increase risk associated with this activity. You might be correct if you say that it isn't a significant risk but you simply can't tell him he is wrong.

I suggest that Saluki corresponds with the CMP Rules Committee on the matter and we all can wait to see what they have to say. If you honestly think that his suggestion is without merit, I encourage you to correspond with the Committee also and state your opinion.
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  #43  
Old 03-19-2017, 11:20 AM
NMC_EXP NMC_EXP is offline
 
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Location: New Mexico
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mustang82 View Post
Most shooting disciplines have evolved from addressing a need to improve marksmanship skills. Some of these may be of questionable relevance today but have survived as sports. The rules provide a standard and level (as possible) playing field for all competitors. Rules and standards provide a means of measurement. Achieving success within a standard set of rules is the goal. Shooting outside of any (other than basic safety) rules is called “plinking” not competition. Allowing Biathletes to use snowmobiles might be interesting and fun but would not be Biathlon. Using a rest in Precision Pistol (Bullseye) would make it very easy but again it would not be the same, and I doubt would make it more popular. The shooting sports will not grow by making them easier, they grow by developing an interest, instilling a desire to excel, and offering opportunities to do that. This is becoming increasingly difficult in a society that gives awards for participation and does not encourage achievement and excellence. Probably why youth participation in most sports has been on a steady decline for several years.
Exceptions made to make activities and sports inclusive to injured or disabled participants are “reasonable accommodations” and within the spirit of the rules.
Your analysis is point by point, dead on the mark.......well done.
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“After all is said and done, successful rifle shooting on the range is nothing more than first finding a rifle and lot of ammunition which will do precisely the same thing shot after shot, and then developing the same skill in the rifleman.” ~ Capt. E. C. Crossman (Book of the Springfield)
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  #44  
Old 03-19-2017, 11:39 AM
fartblossom1953 fartblossom1953 is online now
 
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My two cents. The rules are there to TRY and provide some semblance of equality between individuals equipment. Within a given game and set of rules there are always items that are "bent" by some for a perceived advantage. When they become enough out of line a new rule will arrive (either to the benefit or detriment of all). That's why there are rules. I shot a 600 yard F-class match one time with an M1A SR just for the hell of it. ALL the rules benefitted the F-class rifles including the scoring ring size. It was still fun and educational but not very competitive for me. As far as bringing in the younger crowd my most recent trip to the local range showed me that the average shooter would prefer hanging bottles filled with colored water and shooting from a bench with a scope. Maybe we could do that next? M1's get liter bottles, AR's get 16 oz, and everything else gets bottle caps. Sure would take a bite out of the precision rifle crowd though. I'll have to rethink that idea.
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  #45  
Old 03-19-2017, 02:17 PM
Gewehr43 Gewehr43 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rickgman View Post
Well, not really. Some had a "medical excuse". So I guess it really isn't so important to the substance or the spirit of the event after all. I think that's what Saluki is saying. Personally I don't think it's a big deal one way or the other but he does make a a valid point. Eliminating that requirement simplifies the match and does save little time.

He's also right about some folks not following instructions properly on the line. I've witnessed it, too. In fact, when Saluki and I were shooting the last Vintage Sniper Rifle Match, twice we witnessed discharges during the prep period. Obviously some folks do have a problem with following instructions since they weren't even suppose to load their rifles and certainly not commence firing. Now I don't think that folks moving around on the line with a loaded weapon is a major safety issue as long as the weapons are pointed down range, Saluki is correct - there is still an increase risk associated with this activity. You might be correct if you say that it isn't a significant risk but you simply can't tell him he is wrong.

I suggest that Saluki corresponds with the CMP Rules Committee on the matter and we all can wait to see what they have to say. If you honestly think that his suggestion is without merit, I encourage you to correspond with the Committee also and state your opinion.

Sir:
I brought those 2 matches up for a reason........ You have to move from the standing position to be eligible to win anything....... and yes it's enforced. Those are CMP matches with CMP rules. Your scorer verifies that you did.

Ok.... so you and Saluki shoot the wood games. What happened to the violators? They should have been disqualified and if they weren't that was a failure on the referees part, not the course of fire.

Risk management is valid.......... but how many people have been injured in this "moving" during the rapids? By number..... for a fact? How many?
I googled this tidbit:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/07/he...stat.html?_r=0

In 2006 there were 9279 injuries due to computers.
Does that mean Saluki should stop using his computer?

Absolutely, if Saluki or anyone else wants to bring up their concerns they can......... I've said that repeatedly.
If you want me to reply to Salukis comments, I can.
But I need to know what his point is first.
In the meantime, I have no issues with the rules and so have no reason to write them.
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Service Rifle.... RIP .... 1884-2015

Last edited by Gewehr43; 03-19-2017 at 02:23 PM.
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  #46  
Old 03-19-2017, 06:13 PM
rickgman rickgman is online now
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gewehr43 View Post
OK.... so you and Saluki shoot the wood games. What happened to the violators? They should have been disqualified and if they weren't that was a failure on the referees part, not the course of fire.
Nothing happened but a couple of warnings. Regardless of the consequences associated with these events, Saluki's point was that one can not count on a safety briefing to ensure safety as one respondent mentioned. Having been both a military range officer and a certified NRA range safety officer, I know that safety can not be ensured without constant vigilance by the range officials. That's simply not possible in most competitive events. One way to reduce the risk is to eliminate potentially dangerous evolutions - like moving around with a loaded weapon. Personally, I don't think this is a huge safety issue since weapons should be pointed down range but Saluki's point is still valid.

Even though Saluki and I shot the Vintage Sniper Rifle Team Match as teammates, he's actually a lot more into shooting the black rifle that wood rifles.
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  #47  
Old 03-20-2017, 11:30 AM
jimp223 jimp223 is offline
 
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Can we switch to using bi-pods? My arms get tired holding the rifle. Just kidding... Leave the rules the way they are!
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  #48  
Old 03-20-2017, 12:39 PM
missilegeek missilegeek is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimp223 View Post
Can we switch to using bi-pods? My arms get tired holding the rifle. Just kidding... Leave the rules the way they are!
That's coming, I'm sure.

It's a "shooting contest, not a rifle holding up contest", after all....
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  #49  
Old 03-20-2017, 07:40 PM
fartblossom1953 fartblossom1953 is online now
 
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Barrel always downrange is key. If you want a penalty go for a zero for your first shot for score. That should get a lot more attention to detail on the loading sequence from everyone.
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  #50  
Old 03-20-2017, 08:33 PM
rickgman rickgman is online now
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mustang82 View Post
The shooting sports will not grow by making them easier, they grow by developing an interest, instilling a desire to excel, and offering opportunities to do that. This is becoming increasingly difficult in a society that gives awards for participation and does not encourage achievement and excellence. Probably why youth participation in most sports has been on a steady decline for several years.
This discussion has sort of gotten off track from Saluki's original post but my personal opinion is that only sports that are interesting to the target audience maintain their current level of participation or grow. Let me use bullseye pistol competition as an example. The CMP Rules Committee apparently thought that opening up the definition of a "service pistol" would enhance participation. I don't think that the equipment rules were the problem. In my opinion, the problem is that many young people perceive bullseye pistol competition as boring, slow moving and it does not enhance the sort of skills that they find important. Now look at the popularity of three gun events. They are increasing in popularity mainly because they are perceived as being interesting. Now if we look toward service rifle competition, many young people don't appreciate lengthy matches and don't see them as being as action packed as such events as 3 gun matches. I still think there is lots of benefits associated with shooting service rifles on KD ranges but I do think the format needs some improvement. I think that electronic targets will help a great deal but it is a good idea to look at other changes as well and not dismiss them out of hand just because they are not consistent with classic service rifle competition. If we were to really adhere to classical service rifle competition, we would not see rifles in competition that were only vaguely like true service rifles in appearance. We would not see specialized ammo being used at different ranges - some of which can't even be loaded in a magazine. We wouldn't see shooting jackets that provide support to the shooter. We also wouldn't see slings being used that were never issued with the current service rifle. I could go on and on but I think you all get the idea. Things have already changed and perhaps we need to at least listen to what someone says rather than just dismiss it. Just my two cents worth.
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