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  #61  
Old 03-23-2017, 05:42 PM
NMC_EXP NMC_EXP is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by missilegeek View Post
Well, there was the NRA Highpower video game a long time ago....
I was blissfully unaware of that. Shows what a dinosaur I am.
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“After all is said and done, successful rifle shooting on the range is nothing more than first finding a rifle and lot of ammunition which will do precisely the same thing shot after shot, and then developing the same skill in the rifleman.” ~ Capt. E. C. Crossman (Book of the Springfield)
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  #62  
Old 03-23-2017, 06:06 PM
NMC_EXP NMC_EXP is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rickgman View Post
NM ammo was simply the standard service rifle ammo that was assembled using higher quality processes. Rick
According to 'Hatcher's Notebook', 3rd edition, pages 385 to 394:

At the end of WW1 experiments to develop better ammunition were conducted and National Match Ammunition was the proving ground.

He also refers to the production of "special lots" of National Match ammunition at least up until 1931 after which selected lots of ball ammo were again issued at matches.

Some of that specially made stuff was really good. Per Hatcher's chart on page 387 the mean radius at 600 yards was:

1919, 150 gr GI ball = 5.19" mean radius at 600 yd (for comparison)

1924, 170 gr 9 deg BT = 2.26" MR/600

1925, 170 gr 9 deg BT = 2.30" MR/600
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“After all is said and done, successful rifle shooting on the range is nothing more than first finding a rifle and lot of ammunition which will do precisely the same thing shot after shot, and then developing the same skill in the rifleman.” ~ Capt. E. C. Crossman (Book of the Springfield)
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  #63  
Old 03-23-2017, 06:34 PM
Gewehr43 Gewehr43 is offline
 
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Rick...................

Just send the letter to the CMP............ you and Saluki have gotten plenty of ideas from this thread.............

Time to put pen to paper and send it off.............
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  #64  
Old 03-23-2017, 06:40 PM
Gewehr43 Gewehr43 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NMC_EXP View Post
According to 'Hatcher's Notebook', 3rd edition, pages 385 to 394:

At the end of WW1 experiments to develop better ammunition were conducted and National Match Ammunition was the proving ground.

He also refers to the production of "special lots" of National Match ammunition at least up until 1931 after which selected lots of ball ammo were again issued at matches.

Some of that specially made stuff was really good. Per Hatcher's chart on page 387 the mean radius at 600 yards was:

1919, 150 gr GI ball = 5.19" mean radius at 600 yd (for comparison)

1924, 170 gr 9 deg BT = 2.26" MR/600

1925, 170 gr 9 deg BT = 2.30" MR/600
Yes.... until WW2.............. by then the M2 Ball (150gr) was the standard.......... not the M1 bullet............ which later was used in the NM loadings..........
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  #65  
Old 03-23-2017, 07:48 PM
rickgman rickgman is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gewehr43 View Post
Yes.... until WW2.............. by then the M2 Ball (150gr) was the standard.......... not the M1 bullet............ which later was used in the NM loadings..........
Gentlemen, Thank you for proving my point - until 1953 NM ammo was simply service grade ammo (first 1906 150 grain and then M1 172 grain in 1924) assembled with great quality control. When the NM's resumed in 1953, the ammo used was generally good lots of service grade M2 AP ammo. In 1957, T291 ammo was introduced. It was basically match grade M1 ammo. M1 ammo was officially still in the system even though it was designated OBS. In 1958, T291 ammo officially became M72 ammo.
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  #66  
Old 03-23-2017, 10:05 PM
Gewehr43 Gewehr43 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rickgman View Post
Gewehr, the NM 1903's were actually a standard service rifle with specially selected (and sometimes polished) parts. NM ammo was simply the standard service rifle ammo that was assembled using higher quality processes. The USMC sights were still issue sights and the M1907 sling was the standard issue sling of the time. We are a long way from that now. Rick
You are determined to continue this purse swinging........ ok fine.....

Again the idea of using specialize equipment and modifications is nothing new:

My match conditioned AR has specially selected parts too. EVERY part on my AR will fit/function in an M4/M16. Most are the same.... just like on an M1903.

And before you mention the free float handguards or something, look at this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United...Marksman_Rifle

Ammunition:

The M2 ball was adopted as the standard ball ammunition on November 9th, 1939 (Hatchers Book of the Garand pge 126) and on August 17, 1944 the M1 ammunition was declared obsolete (pge127). So really any use of the M1 bullet/cartridge after 1944 wasn't using "standard rifle ammunition."

The same being true, sort of, with the AR. While it is true that M193 and M855 aren't required to be used in civilian matches, the military issued and still issues mk262. Which is a 77grain Match bullet. Which alot of competitors, including me, "assembled using higher quality processes" and compete with.

The Marine sights modified the standard aperture and front sight........... just like my AR.
And the JP Ohare tool made the M1903 sight usable for competition.

I still use an M1907 sling as do 99%? of shooters............

So No, we are NOT "a long way from that now."

We are still modifying the service rifle like they did 75yrs ago.

That hasn't changed.......... and moving into position hasn't changed.

Nor does it need to.......... it's still relevant and a good skill to test.
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Last edited by Gewehr43; 03-23-2017 at 10:23 PM.
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  #67  
Old 03-23-2017, 10:38 PM
rickgman rickgman is offline
 
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Gewehr, In my opinion, you are stretching logic to make a number of your points. Enough said on my part.
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  #68  
Old 03-24-2017, 08:38 AM
missilegeek missilegeek is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NMC_EXP View Post
I was blissfully unaware of that. Shows what a dinosaur I am.
You missed nothing. The sport just doesn't translate to other mediums.
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  #69  
Old Yesterday, 09:33 PM
Deuceguy Deuceguy is offline
 
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Interesting thread... Just so I'm clear, shooting is now considered a sport?!?!?! I thought of shooting as a disciplined hobby because there is no requirement to have athletic ability. But if it gets more people involved, then call it a sport! I'll be that guy following the rules, shooting with my wood and metal. Sometimes I shoot with my homemade coat, sometimes I don't. In all of my years of playing sports (baseball, football, wrestling, rugby) and now I'm accumulating years in the shooting realm, I've noticed that the ones who have the best up to date equipment are the biggest head cases and have mediocre skills at best.

I'd like to see an all off-hand match, with no coat or glove.. I'm in!
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