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  #1  
Old 09-28-2015, 05:06 AM
Ray Brandes Ray Brandes is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Panama City Beach, FL
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Default Electronic Target Confidence

As with anything new, there is some skepticism with the electronic target system.

What I would like to see, and suggest, is this experiment at 200 yards:

Carefully place a paper SR target over the aiming black of the Kongsberg target.

Fire a string and then compare the paper target to the electronic print out. Mostly what I want to see is shots just breaking the line or not and how the Kongsberg rates them.

Such a target and the printout framed and posted in the club house would give me more confidence that a 9.9 was in fact not a 10.

Additonally, if the software would show the circle of a 9.9 not breaking the scoring ring line that would be good.

Regards, Ray
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Old 09-28-2015, 09:41 AM
canes7 canes7 is offline
 
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It may also be part of the fix for the "lost shot" problem too.
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  #3  
Old 09-28-2015, 10:03 AM
jsudduth jsudduth is offline
 
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My uncertainty with this system comes from the Vintage sniper match on Friday. I had a shot in my 300 yard string that didn't show up on my monitor. I know I was on the correct target as it was part of my shot process to verify that every shot. And similarly to hold center and squeeze. The shot did not show up on any other target as a crossfire. So one of four things happened.

1. I fired a miss at 300 yards. I was on pace for a 94/100. I ended up with 84/100 with that miss. I was shooting X's, 10's and 9's. I don't think I completely missed every target down there.

2. The audio sensors didn't pick up the shot. I can't prove or disprove whether they did or not. Shots outside the target frame must be ignored somehow. It would be a good thing if shots outside the frame could be plotted if for no other reason than it leaves too much doubt when a shot just disappears.

3. The audio sensors picked up the shot but the data was lost during transmission to the control room. Again, can't prove this one way or the other.

I don't know how robust the transmission system is or what media/protocol the system uses. How is corrupted data handled by the receiver? Does the DSP at the target have a mechanism to resend the data if it is rejected by the server? What happens if the data never gets there? Is their an acknowledgement between the server and the DSP that the shot data was received? How long does the DSP hold onto the shot data or is it cleared once it's transmitted? How big is the buffer on the server? How many shots can it handle simultaneously without dropping data?

4. The 168 grain AMAX bullet came apart before hitting the target. I've shot hundreds of these from multiple rifles without problems. But I can't say with 100% certainty that it didn't happen. Just that it seems unlikely.

The current way the CMP handles this could be better in my opinion. Right now if you have a shot that doesn't register for some reason they have you fire again and if the next shot registers you have to eat a miss. End of discussion. The range officer I talked to made it seem like they believe the system is infallible. I thought he was pretty rude in the way he addressed my concerns. I have to say I don't have that same level of confidence he does. Right now there is no mechanism for a challenge for anything.

For someone to spend the kind of money it takes to travel a significant distance with the associated travel/accommodation expenses as well as the match fees and time off from work only to have a match ruined by that kind of attitude will make me think twice about doing it again.

Also I was a bit shocked to find that the targets have no scoring rings. It makes aiming with a scope interesting to say the least. Holding off a scoring ring or two is pretty much a guess as well as no real visual confirmation that you are holding center. Your just making a guess that you are holding in the same spot from shot to shot. F-Class guys that use the numbers to make sure that their crosshairs are level will be disappointed as there are no numbers as there are no rings to number. F-Class matches, if they intend to run that type of match, will be interesting to say the least.

I don't know how reasonable it would be but I may take my spotting scope next time and set it up and ask my verifier to watch my shot trace as the bullet flies to the target. If they can visually verify that they saw the bullet hit the correct target but it doesn't register it would give some leverage to the shooters in this discussion.

Jim

Last edited by jsudduth; 09-28-2015 at 10:08 AM. Reason: Added another thought.
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  #4  
Old 09-28-2015, 12:37 PM
Gewehr43 Gewehr43 is offline
 
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I have no dog in this fight............. I shot this week end and was fine with the process the CMP rules.

So 3 comments:

-My thought on the "9.9" thing is this: If it applies equally to all, then it is a non issue. What I mean is this if we both (you and I) each shoot what might be considered a scratch 10 but the system scores it a 9.9, it is fair and applied equally to all.

-The "shoot another and its fine" rule. That is no different than someone in the pits not seeing a shot on paper. It is what it is. Their rule is the easiest, most accurate way of verifying the target is functioning.

-The lines on the target: Same thing- it applies to all so all are at a disadvantage.

I liked the system and though it is different, it is far better and easier than the manual system.
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  #5  
Old 09-28-2015, 02:10 PM
3StrikesNC 3StrikesNC is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gewehr43 View Post
I have no dog in this fight............. I shot this week end and was fine with the process the CMP rules.

So 3 comments:

-My thought on the "9.9" thing is this: If it applies equally to all, then it is a non issue. What I mean is this if we both (you and I) each shoot what might be considered a scratch 10 but the system scores it a 9.9, it is fair and applied equally to all.

-The "shoot another and its fine" rule. That is no different than someone in the pits not seeing a shot on paper. It is what it is. Their rule is the easiest, most accurate way of verifying the target is functioning.

-The lines on the target: Same thing- it applies to all so all are at a disadvantage.

I liked the system and though it is different, it is far better and easier than the manual system.
What he said, a thousand times. I'd go up on the TMP system ANY DAY versus some of the Yahoo's that have screwed me over at Camp Perry in the past four years.

I was there this past Thursday trough Sunday, shot about 200 rounds down range, 200, 300 & 600. Shot practice. Shot matches. Shot on the little end. Shot the middle. Shot the big end. No difference. Shot .223 & .30, no problems. Shot all my shots "with no scoring rings', no problems.

Of course, I did my research, knew what to expect before I got there, then LISTENED to the CMP Range folks. Sat in on the pre-match morning brief by Don, Leon & Doug on Friday morning, so knew what to expect. Different yes. Do I trust it, yes. Do I like it, yes. I like it takes out all the crap, all the "fudge", all the Yahoos in the pits that either don't know how to score a close call or are too busy BS-ing to pay attention. I like it's the same for all of us.

300 yards with no scoring rings with an 8X was a bit unnerving at first. Advice from Don Rutherford during the PUBLIC meeting Friday morning on how to line up helped. The VS Matches attempt to approximate some of the skills required of those originally using the sniper rifles. None of them had "scoring rings". In fact, none of them had a big black dot to aim at. It has been said that Mark Johnson has suggested reducing the 600 bull, I'm for it. To me it'd make it easier at Talladega, but his reasoning I believe is to make the course more challenging.

This match has evolved and will likely continue to do so. It's fun. It's not the end of the world if you don't personal best each time, s*%t happens. Yeah, it costs a bunch to play the game. I've been burnt in matches as well. Equipment problems- I kick myself in the butt. Those of you that know me know so. But poor pit service? I've been burned big time, by super A-holes, at Perry. Ever try to file a complaint on that line? If you have, you know what I mean.

The TMP 600 yards is challenging, as the targets are close to each other, or at least appear that way. Cross fires are simple to do on a course like that. In defense, for XTC they are EXACTLY lined up, from 200 out to 600. No question about it. Shoot Viale, hell some of those are half and half.

As I posted elsewhere, the good shooters will still be good shooters at TMP. There are no fudge factors there, no "yeah, I guess that's a 10". No "yeah, I think he got that shot off before cease fire".

I will say this about the first Vintage Sniper Match at TMP - the CMP Line Officials & Top were too "easy" on some guys. It was clearly explained that the shooter had to dismount the rifle and COULD NOT load a round on the "Stand By" command, only once the "Fire" command was given was the shooter to load. How many of you heard the yahoo's on both ends fire within a nanosecond of the fire command? Not just once but almost every sequence. When we completed the match I asked to see Jerry Miculek's target printout, because that's the only guy I know of that might be able to load with that kind of speed and I just knew he had to be on the line..... I didn't get it, Leon was too busy eating doughnuts (lol).

I like the facility. I like the even competition. I like the speed in which I can fire the match. I like no pit duty. I like no wasted time. I like the instant feedback of my shots during slow fire. I like being able to see ALL my slow fire shots, so I don't have to plot them during the match to determine where I'm trending. I like getting a printout of ALL my shots. I like using state-of-the-art equipment and only paying a pittance to be able to use it.

BTW, I use a Bullseye Camera system at home, so I'm a bit used to technology on the firing line. I designed a Vintage Sniper course for our local club a few years ago. we don't have pits. We use home made "Shoot-N-See" type targets and Bullseye Cameras in place of the pits. When I first brought up the suggestion, guys said it wouldn't work without pits. A few years later and it's the most popular match we have (every other month) and almost everyone has bought a Vintage Sniper compliant rifle, some more than one. We've been doing the 20 second rule but I'm planning to copy the TMP timing rules- I think that's a better solution than allowing a shooter to scope a target for almost 40 seconds.

BTW, I did have a crossfire onto my target during the M1 or VS Match, don't recall which one. Both myself and my "verifier" saw it during SP. I shot an X, looked at my monitor to confirm my called shot and as I confirmed my X shot, had a 9 show up. What was nice about this is because of the instant feedback, We knew, without doubt, which shot was mine. That doesn't happen with Pits. My verifier notified the official at the same time the gracious shooter to my left announced that he had cross fired. When I finally took my tenth shot the display paged over and displayed it as shot number eleven (it retained the cross fire as a shot of record). I was a bit concerned so since the match was over I went to the booth to confirm with Top & Sara that they fixed it, which they had. Apparently they manually intervene and negated that "9". It printed graphically in the location as a shot of record but was not scored and it was crossed out. Pretty simple, no emotions.

Last edited by 3StrikesNC; 09-28-2015 at 02:38 PM.
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  #6  
Old 10-27-2015, 04:21 PM
dennymac dennymac is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: La Grange, KY
Posts: 59
Default Apparent Missed shots during a match

Greetings from Kentucky. I have read these posts with great interest. I am very interested in the 'apparent missed shot' issue. Someone stated earlier that if the second shot was recorded then the error must be on the part of the shooter. That is the position that the Park is taking, at the moment. That sounds a lot like the old Microsoft response, 'the problem must be on your end, it came out here just fine'. The paper target scoring has a definite advantage in the 'missed shot' scenario. It is possible to FIND the missing hole hiding in the numbers or on a line a couple of shots later. It has happened to me. I really want this to work, but it seems to leave a lot to tweak out, for the moment. Best of luck to all. DennyMac
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  #7  
Old 10-27-2015, 05:51 PM
m60 tanker m60 tanker is offline
 
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Location: East Alabama
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I live 10 miles from the CMP range in Talladega. I was looking at there Facebook page and the main range is closed till they are updating the target's.
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  #8  
Old 10-28-2015, 07:39 AM
renovate7 renovate7 is offline
 
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Location: Florida
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Damn! I'm loaded up and leaving in an hour to shoot there. Guess I'll spend more time at Barber Motorsports.
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  #9  
Old 10-29-2015, 07:30 PM
K31Schmidt K31Schmidt is offline
 
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Location: Alabama
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Range 2 (100 yd) seems to be open, but I would call first.
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  #10  
Old 10-29-2015, 09:05 PM
GhostInTheMachine GhostInTheMachine is offline
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The 600 yard range has reopened in Talladega. Testing has been completed by KTS and CMP staff.
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