Go Back   CMP Forums > CMP General > Talladega Marksmanship Park
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 11-13-2015, 06:06 PM
CMP Targets CMP Targets is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 11
Default Kongsberg Target Systems: Operation & Testing

Kongsberg Target Systems at Talladega Marksmanship Park

This will be the first in a series of posts to answer the concerns and questions about the operation of the target systems, the problems experienced in the last couple of events, and the testing conducted afterward. We will also discuss the proposed rule changes in relation to electronically scored targets.

So as not to be anonymous, let me introduce myself:

Bryan Parris, the Sales Representative, responsible for selling Kongsberg Target Systems AS (KTS) electronically scored targets for the Civilian Marksmanship Program. I was the Chief Range Safety Officer during the final phase of construction through the opening of the park and the first few months of operation, including the inaugural matches. I transitioned to CMP Targets when it was decided that CMP would be the United States distributor for KTS. I can be reached at Email, or 256-835-8455 ext. 421, and will post in this forum as CMP Targets. As the distributor for these targets systems we obviously have full confidence in their capabilities and the company that produces them.

The following is a brief description of the target construction and operation provided by Bjarte Myran, he is the Senior Service, Target Development, and Technical Sales Technician for KTS AS:

Electronic Target Systems from Kongsberg Target Systems AS.

The simple story: a target system consists of a minimum of one target and one monitor. The target is set up to a certain lane number during installation, and the monitor is set up to a corresponding lane number during start up. The monitor calibrates the target sensors and electronics, basically establishing the listening protocols based on caliber selection and target definition.
When a shot is fired and reaches the target, the shot is detected by the target, and data is sent from that target to the monitor set up to the same lane number. The data is processed by the monitor and is then presented graphically and with a shot value at the shooters monitor.
If a competition or organized training is going on, the results might be exported from the monitor to a computer controlling the system. If needed, the results can be exported further on to spectator screens on the range, or even to the internet, making it possible for people all over to follow the shooting shot by shot. Also, the final results can be exported to for example Competition Tracker.
An animation showing this can be found here.

Modes:

The system can be used in two modes:
  1. Training or Practice Mode:
    • The shooter has full control of the system. 99 shots maximum in a series, the shooter can clear the target at any time.
    • No pre-defined shooting programs. Shoot and see.
    • Based on setup the shooter has several viewing and data options available on the monitor.
    • Spectator viewing solution optional, both locally and to the internet.
  2. Competition or Match Mode:
    • The target systems are controlled centrally in the range tower.
      • Will run pre-defined competition programs or matches. Allow limitations such as timing per string, sighter shots, total number of shots per string, etc.
      • Centralizes the scoring functions by gathering the shot and scoring data from the specified monitors.
      • Identifies any early or late shots, and any sound deviations detected by the target systems.
      • Ability to run a system check at any time, controlling the status of any part of the system. The targets, monitors, and data servers are constantly monitored for functionality.
    • The shooter has limited control of the monitor in competition mode. Will only be able to zoom the screen, and to choose shooter/caliber during team matches.
    • Spectator viewing solutions optional, both locally on the range and to the internet. In addition to the scores, this solution will also name the shooter(s) in competition mode.


In detail:
Construction details of the target:
  • Four acoustical sensors, “microphones”, are placed inside the frame, in each corner, pointing towards the center of the frame.
  • Picture from the upper corner of a target frame:

  • These microphones are connected to a timer board in the target.
  • The frame is covered with a rubber sheet, target rubber, one on each side. This insulates the inside of the frame acoustically from the surroundings, and prevents noise from neighboring lanes to enter the target. The inside of the frame is what KTS calls an “Acoustic Chamber”.
  • A band of rubber, scoring rubber, is placed over the target vertically, covering the primary impact area for bullet strikes. This rubber is meant to be periodically rotated to retain a consistent chamber condition.
  • Picture of a target with only the rubber sheets:
  • The front and rear of the target is fitted with thermal insulating material, thermal shields, to stabilize the internal temperature of the target.
  • The front of the target is fitted with an aiming mark of choice, usually constructed from corrugated plastic, giving us a complete target:
  • The principle is the same for all targets, only the scale differs.
Function of the targets:
  • When a shot is fired, and the projectile is reaching the target, the bullet penetrates the front template and the insulation, and then passes through the area between the front and rear rubber sheet, the acoustic chamber.
  • A sound wave from the projectile itself and/or the projectile hitting the front rubber sheet is made, and is spreading in the air inside the sound chamber like rings in water.
  • When the first wave front reaches the microphone closest to the impact, the timer board in the targets reacts, and starts three timers.
  • These timers are stopped, one by one, as the sound waves expand and reach the other microphones.
  • The timer board then has three time-difference measurements. In addition, the temperature of the air inside the acoustic chamber is measured. The speed of sound in air is depending on several things, but the temperature has the biggest impact, and is therefore needed in the calculations.
  • These three time differences and the temperature data is sent to the shooters monitor, where the calculation of the shot impact coordinate is done.
  • Limitations:
    • A projectile must pass through the acoustic chamber to be measured correctly.
    • A tumbling or deformed projectile might give false or incorrect readings, even if penetrating the acoustic chamber.
    • A shot not hitting the target at all will not be detected.
    • A shot hitting the frame of the target will generate error readings, and the shot coordinate cannot be calculated correctly.
Communication:
  • Communication between all the different units in the system is full two way, with hand shake protocols.
  • Because of this hand shake protocol, no data can “disappear” on its way. All data transmitted from one unit to another generates a “receipt”, returned to the sender when the data is correctly received by the recipient. If any noise or other things happen during the data transmission, the data will therefore be re-sent until it is correctly received.
  • If massive data amounts are transmitted, slight delays might occur, but due to the above protocols, no data will be lost.

Hopefully, this will answer most of the questions concerning the construction of the target systems and how they are designed to operate. We are planning on having demonstrations available during the Talladega 600 events to show target construction, simulated scoring and monitor operations. The test targets will be available for review as well.
We will have several senior technicians from KTS present at the demonstrations and matches that will be able to answer additional questions or offer additional technical expertise on the target construction and operation.

Bryan Parris
CMP Targets
Integrity – Accuracy – Safety – Efficiency
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 11-13-2015, 08:37 PM
ratpack ratpack is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: North Texas
Posts: 190
Default Kongsberg Target Systems

Welcome to the Forum. Many of us look forward to your system and testing findings and clarifications.
__________________
"Nothing in life is more exhilarating as to be shot at....without result"
Winston Churchill
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 11-14-2015, 06:43 AM
wesvb wesvb is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Friendswood, Texas
Posts: 1,357
Default

Please tell us how the targets can miss centered shots? We know it does or has.
Shot out membrane?
Wind pushing the membranes together?

Is there a calibration procedure?
If one wants to put a conventional target face on how is that target face centered to match what the system thinks is the center?

Thanks

Last edited by wesvb; 11-14-2015 at 01:50 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 11-14-2015, 08:26 AM
RVN 69-70 RVN 69-70 is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 1,775
Default Yep

Quote:
Originally Posted by ratpack View Post
Welcome to the Forum. Many of us look forward to your system and testing findings and clarifications.
THIS ^^^ Thanks for info. Anxious to see what this weekends 'test' exhibits.
__________________
SGT US ARMY RA - RVN 69-70,
8th Field Hospital - Nha Trang
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 11-14-2015, 09:03 PM
hi-revr hi-revr is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Missouri
Posts: 414
Default

Welcome aboard, I think most of us hope nothing but the best for this system. After reading all the threads on target issues my belief was there were some misses that people blamed on the targets. As time went on and I knew a few people experiencing problems I became convinced there were some target problems. The recent mass problem at the EIC match removed doubt, there was a target issue. I like your detailed description of the system but find one glaring problem. Paraphrasing, you say no data can be lost. The EIC match proved beyond most peoples reasonable doubt this is not true. To back this up in the Open letter to Mark Johnson thread post 54 Mark briefly describes a programming change to solve comm issues.

I'm far from a computer expert but have been forced to utilize one for my job. I've learned the I.T. World usually denies a problem exists, blames the user, or some outside influence. The truth is it often takes one of the gifted few to actually diagnose and remedy a given set of problems. Most I.T. People know either the software, the communications portion, or some other piece of the puzzle. I worked with a few that know all aspects and can explain it to us common folk. Those few are special.

Having been a car restorer for years I get asked about car repairs from family and friends. My advice for taking a car to a shop and being worried about the ripoff........if a mechanic tells you a repair might fix something but you may need an additional parts ask the question.........Is this a guess or a fix. If it's a guess then we share in the financial risk. Better yet, take it to a shop that will fix it instead of guess at it.

Obviously no one outside the CMP or Kongsberg knows much of what has occurred. We only know there was a problem and a fix was devised. I hope it is a fix and not a guess. One of the downsides of Al Gore's internet is there tends to be a number of whiners and doubters on every forum. I feel the silent majority believes the system will prove successful. I hope the programming change is a fix instead of a guess.
__________________
Distinguished Rifleman #2227
President's Hundred
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 11-15-2015, 10:28 PM
Greg Ficklin Greg Ficklin is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: South Carolina
Posts: 594
Default

When do you think these systems will be available to CMP clubs?
Does the CMP plan to help clubs with financing, and support for these systems? What is the estimated cost per unit if a club wanted 10 of them ?
__________________
Distinguished Rifleman #2198
NRA HP XTC High Master (service rifle)
NRA Patron Life member
PCGC Junior Team coach
CMP GSM Master Inst.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 11-16-2015, 12:01 AM
454pistolshooter 454pistolshooter is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: ohio
Posts: 744
Default targets

I have used similar in the air rifle range, I prefer paper it doesn't break
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 11-17-2015, 08:20 PM
CMP Targets CMP Targets is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 11
Default KTS Testing

KTS Testing Discussion

There has been much discussion on this forum, and others, concerning each of the major events that have been conducted on Range 1, the 600 yard range, at the park. I will not cover each of those in detail, but would like to make a few statements before we discuss the Alabama State Highpower Championship Match.

We have been identifying and working on many issues that have been transparent to the shooter since we began firing on the system in April, as well as the issues that have been discussed on the forum. There are a number of systems involved in the process: the target and monitor, the competition software, the spectator viewing software, the interface with CMP’s Competition Tracker, and the target lifter control software to name a few. The majority of our work has been focused on the software to be able to operate and conduct a match in the manner that our shooters are accustomed and to reflecting the stages, shots, and results in the most logical manner. Along the way we have identified other problems and maintenance issues that we have had to understand and work to correct. There are 162 electronic target systems on the range (each with their own components), monitors, junction boxes, power supplies, power relays, fiber converters, wires, cables, target lifters, transformers, etc, -- and they are being shot daily with high powered rifles. We expected to have problems, we expected to have to do maintenance, we expected to have to repair and replace components and parts of the systems.

With the exception of some of the problems during Top’s High Power Clinic and the 800 Aggregate match that followed, the problems have been with the software, and the different programs talking to each other, along with the data transfer/communication protocols bringing the data from the target lines to the firing line. There were several targets that needed repair that were not being used for the 800 Aggregate Match, but were on and still communicating with the systems. They were damaged and sending occasional error messages to the system, causing the “data clogging” that has been discussed. This resulted in the slow reaction time on the monitors, not seeing your 2 shots in a rapid stage or all your shots coming in after you had completed firing. We repaired the targets, learned some lessons, completed a test match and thought we had fixed the issue.

The Alabama State Highpower Championship Match brought these issues back, causing the problems that have already been acknowledged that the target systems were not functioning properly during the 600 yard stage of the match. We conducted staff testing on these targets and could not replicate the problems entirely, although we did encounter missing shots and determined that the problems would require KTS to diagnose. KTS technicians visited the weekend following the match and stayed for several days of testing and modification. That seems to be the topic of most interest at this point, what testing was done, what changes were made, was it a “fix or a guess”?

Each of the targets systems (monitor & targets) were tested, at each yard line, for function. Several target systems were tested extensively, including several that were identified as having issues during the match. The targets that were selected for extensive testing were removed from our hard wired data system, fitted with wireless transmitters, and additional testing instrumentation and had several hundred rounds fired through them. The additional testing instrumentation “graded” the target components (acoustic and temperature sensors) and created duplicate results to be able to compare for each shot. Testing was conducted with a variety of ammunition from 55 grain M193 5.56mm to 80 grain 5.56mm handloads; 147 grain .30 cal to 175 grain .30 cal trying to cover the majority of what would be used at the range, specifically in competition. There were no “lost” rounds during this testing and there were no issues identified with the targets. The data collected did allow KTS to tweak the acoustic settings on the target systems. We are not saying the targets are infallible, but they are only one component of the entire system.

During the target testing, additional KTS technicians were testing the software, data communication protocols, data routing, and the various interfaces between the different software programs. This is essentially the process of the monitor sending setup data to the target, the target relaying shot information back to the monitor, the monitor then converting the raw data to the display based on the chosen target definition. In competition mode, the system relays additional information to the monitors prior to shooting and pulls information from the monitors during and after shooting occurs. The technicians were able to run the target systems with mock data, in practice and match mode, and were able to identify and replicate the issues that we had seen in the last two matches. One of the critical software issues identified resulted in a delay of setup data being transmitted to the targets. Setup information to the targets is sent from the firing line before every string in competition mode and during target selection in practice mode. If this set up data is delayed, specifically if it is delayed so much so that shooting starts before the set up data gets to the target, the targets will not work correctly. The logic behind the data flow in the system has been adjusted to overcome this issue and to cope with the larger number of targets on this particular range.

There were several software updates with new programming applied and we fired a staff match with 10 live competitors and mock competitors on the other targets with none of the previous issues. KTS returned to Norway satisfied that the issues had been identified, fixes applied, and issues resolved. We will continue to complete software upgrades and make adjustments to the match procedures and monitor views to make the system as user friendly as possible. We are learning subtle differences between practice mode and competition mode, establishing maintenance procedures, and working toward a more reliable system.

In the next post we will discuss the target testing that staff conducted after the KTS technicians’ departure. This will cover many of the requests and questions that are reflected in many of the forum posts. Paper targets overlays, how does or can the target “miss” a shot, what about shots through the same hole?

Bryan Parris
CMP Targets
Integrity – Accuracy – Safety – Efficiency
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 11-17-2015, 09:01 PM
jsudduth jsudduth is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Melbourne, FL
Posts: 323
Default

Thanks for the continued updates Bryan. I have a question regarding the target faces. With the current target faces there is only the white target face and the black center. Is there any reason why the black centers can't have scoring rings? Having the scoring rings would be particularly helpful when shooting scoped rifles.
Thanks
Jim
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 11-25-2015, 11:00 AM
jsudduth jsudduth is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Melbourne, FL
Posts: 323
Default

Bryan,
Its been over a week since I posted this question. I can see from your user stats that you've been logging in during that time. I didn't think it was an unreasonable question. Since there is a vintage sniper match coming up at the Talladega 600 it seems to me to be a relevant question since a lot of those shooters will be using rifles with 4x to 8x optics and having rings definitely makes aiming easier. I'm just curious if there is a specific reason the KTS targets can't have scoring rings.
Jim
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:56 PM.