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  #31  
Old 01-10-2017, 05:59 PM
old sagarand old sagarand is offline
 
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Did drugs play any factor in this case? Just curious. Hopefully no one else was hurt.
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  #32  
Old 01-10-2017, 06:30 PM
itwillis itwillis is offline
 
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Originally Posted by old sagarand View Post
Did drugs play any factor in this case? Just curious. Hopefully no one else was hurt.
No

https://www.google.com/amp/www.thega...?client=safari


Read the whole thing, it explains the situation better than I can.
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  #33  
Old 01-10-2017, 07:13 PM
Ohio Don Ohio Don is offline
 
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Originally Posted by rickgman View Post
Don, the M1 carbine loaded with soft point ammo had proven to be very good in close quarters combat with the NYPD Stake Out Squad. However, 9mm SMG's have proven to be problematic with regard to over-penetration and that's one reason why they are not in common usage any longer. An AR chambered in 9mm should be no better. Rick
Depends on the 9mm ammo. Too much of it in use now days is +P rated and not regular pressure ratings. And weren't most of the rounds Ball ammo in the SMGs? Over penetration takes place with just about all major calibers as even at 200 yards out of a pistol, the .45ACP will go thru a 3/4" pine board. If you can hit the target. 1/2" Pine board is the old Army standard for lethal shot.
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  #34  
Old 01-11-2017, 02:34 PM
itwillis itwillis is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Ohio Don View Post
Depends on the 9mm ammo. Too much of it in use now days is +P rated and not regular pressure ratings. And weren't most of the rounds Ball ammo in the SMGs? Over penetration takes place with just about all major calibers as even at 200 yards out of a pistol, the .45ACP will go thru a 3/4" pine board. If you can hit the target. 1/2" Pine board is the old Army standard for lethal shot.
There are two kinds of over penetration. One kind is when a bullet penetrates over 18" in gel/tissue which means that the bullet was likely inefficient in causing an actual wound. The other kind is when a bullet goes through too much "stuff" and still has the ability to injure/kill an unknown or unintended target.

Modern handgun ammunition is very susceptible to the latter, whereas quality bonded rifle ammunition, specifically 5.56/223 is not (which is hard to wrap your head around but hey there it is).

I've never heard of the 1/2" pine board test, obviously something that can penetrate would likely be able to cause a significant injury at the same distance to a human.... but alone that means nothing. It does line up though with they way the thinking was back then. Thankfully it's 2017 and we've made progress since then. Actually most advancements in handgun ammunition have been made since the year 2000, rifle didn't start getting real good until 2010 or so.
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  #35  
Old 01-11-2017, 02:54 PM
rickgman rickgman is online now
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio Don View Post
Depends on the 9mm ammo. Too much of it in use now days is +P rated and not regular pressure ratings. And weren't most of the rounds Ball ammo in the SMGs?
Don, Yep, most folks use ball ammo in SMG's to ensure reliability. However, when most JHP ammo encounters drywall material, it acts pretty much like ball ammo and 9mm ball ammo has exceptional penetration capability. Rick
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  #36  
Old 01-11-2017, 09:04 PM
Ammolab Ammolab is offline
 
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Originally Posted by itwillis View Post
The other kind is when a bullet goes through too much "stuff" and still has the ability to injure/kill an unknown or unintended target.

Modern handgun ammunition is very susceptible to the latter, whereas quality bonded rifle ammunition, specifically 5.56/223 is not (which is hard to wrap your head around but hey there it is).
This sounds backwards to me: "Bonded" 5.56mm ammunition is designed to hold together and PENETRATE to the intended target behind a barrier. It will not reduce the risk of over penetration beyond any missed target.
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  #37  
Old 01-11-2017, 09:32 PM
itwillis itwillis is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Ammolab View Post
This sounds backwards to me: "Bonded" 5.56mm ammunition is designed to hold together and PENETRATE to the intended target behind a barrier. It will not reduce the risk of over penetration beyond any missed target.
Well I did say it was hard to wrap your head around, so stop trying LOL.

The reason is actually pretty simple. Rifle bullets hit things at much higher speeds, especially indoors at short range. Bonded or not it is still a soft core bullet design, and they tear themselves to pieces in pretty short order.
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  #38  
Old 01-11-2017, 09:53 PM
Ammolab Ammolab is offline
 
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Originally Posted by itwillis View Post
Well I did say it was hard to wrap your head around, so stop trying LOL.

The reason is actually pretty simple. Rifle bullets hit things at much higher speeds, especially indoors at short range. Bonded or not it is still a soft core bullet design, and they tear themselves to pieces in pretty short order.
Not simple at all: You say a bullet designed to hold together and penetrate is going to tear itself apart in short order?

Below from Hornady on their "bonded 5.56". Other makers list similar design parameters.

"The design of the 5.56 62 gr. TAP Barrier bullet allows the projectile to maintain its structural integrity while punching through barriers".
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  #39  
Old 01-12-2017, 12:21 AM
itwillis itwillis is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Ammolab View Post
Not simple at all: You say a bullet designed to hold together and penetrate is going to tear itself apart in short order?

Below from Hornady on their "bonded 5.56". Other makers list similar design parameters.

"The design of the 5.56 62 gr. TAP Barrier bullet allows the projectile to maintain its structural integrity while punching through barriers".
Marketing hype and real world aren't the same thing. Hornady also uses several solid metal bullets in their barrier/TAP loads which yes will go through every wall in your house just like many pistol bullets. Those particular loads are also terrible choices for home defense for exactly that reason.

Before you touch of a 223 in your living room at a bad guy you better be [email protected] sure what's in your chamber.

I work and teach and train in this world. Your understanding of terminal effects of modern ammunition is flawed. I suggest you seek information from primary sources not on the internet.
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  #40  
Old 01-12-2017, 05:53 AM
Army MSG Army MSG is offline
 
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Good article:
http://www.guns.com/2015/09/17/self-...er-penetratio/
The article is over simplistic and not entirely accurate. Buckshot can and does penetrate a wall made of drywall. A wall made of drywall is easily penetrated and a over penetration concern for almost any round.
The The Gun Channel on my Roku has some good testing. I do not remember the episode name, but they set up some mock walls to simulate a home and live fire. I'll see if I can find the internet version maybe tonight and share of anyone is interested.

Last edited by Army MSG; 01-12-2017 at 06:28 AM.
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