Go Back   CMP Forums > CMP Sales > CMP Bolt Action Rifles
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11  
Old 11-26-2020, 07:56 AM
Kerz Kerz is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Eastern KY
Posts: 447
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scubaman7 View Post
Im looking at possibly purchasing this 1903 Springfield w/ Winchester Heavy Barrel. Did Springfield ever use Winchester heavy barrels. Its serial number 1268698 is not a direct hit on SRS list. But it falls in the range of NM rifles.
It has what looks like a NBA stock.

I have it on hold at Rick Crosier Fine Guns in Waddy KY. Has anyone dealt with him before? He lists on GB.

I do not know how to add photos. PM me and I will be glad to send photos.
Thanks for any help identifying anything about this rifle.

Stan Watson
Stan
He comes under great suspicion by reputable folks on the Colt Forum.
https://www.coltforum.com/threads/gu.../#post-3132837
Vic
__________________
Preparedness + Opportunity = Luck Ö NRA Benefactor Member Ö KY & WV State Rifle & Pistol Association Life Member
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 11-26-2020, 08:28 AM
cplnorton cplnorton is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Van Wert, Ohio
Posts: 2,130
Default

It would take some considerable time to try to go thru the SA docs to see the one I'm thinking of about WRA barrels.

But I did know where these were. I used to scour newspapers and magazines of the day for any articles or pics that would help in my research. These are from about the very beginning of the heavy barrel M1903 days in 1922.

Now when you read this or look at it, please understand this was the very beginning. All of it changed a lot over the next about 14 years or so. Heavy barrel M1903's became very popular after 1922 among the any sight, any rifle competitions, and you see so many different variations that it can make your head spin. Plus shooters could order any combination or custom rifle from anyone. I remember competitive shooters writing SA and requesting the most off the wall custom rifles and SA would reply back how much they would charge. I think that is one thing that most people don't know. SA would do about anything for money at this time.

Basically anything anyone could dream of, and had money for it, SA, the Marine Philly Depot, WRA, and every private gunsmith out there would make for you. Competitive shooting was extremely popular and everyone at this time and all these Armories and gun-makers were just trying to stay a float and not close their doors.

If I ever do find those WRA SA docs I will come back and post them.

But here are a few showing some of WRA's involvement in the early days of heavy barrels. I see a lot of mentions of these No 1 and No 2 WRA "Snipers."

https://imgur.com/xUgYhAl

https://i.imgur.com/JIJfFCd.jpg

https://imgur.com/2vtzDCR

https://i.imgur.com/YgqQEOU.jpg
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 11-26-2020, 11:34 AM
champ0608 champ0608 is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Arizona
Posts: 209
Default

I've seen a much better version of this picture, but can't find it. Sgt John Adkins after winning the 1921 Wimbledon match in the infamous duel with Dad Farr. The two rifles remind me of each other, especially the very plain stock.



As for the gunbroker rifle, to me, the placement of the scope bases seems off compared to the rifles I've seen from that era. Bases were usually on the receiver, or on the barrel butted against the receiver. Strange to see the rear base so far forward. Who knows if that means anything. Just an observation.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 11-26-2020, 02:42 PM
Herschel Herschel is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Rison, AR
Posts: 699
Default

Some questions occur to me when reading this thread. Why would anyone order a Winchester barrel from the DCM when they could get it direct from Winchester? Why would anyone put a match rifle in a C type stock when the superior 1922, aka the NRA stock, was available? The rear scope block was mounted on the barrel instead of the receiver ring because the barrel steel was not hardened like the double heat treated
receiver ring. FWIW, my opinion is that this barrel was installed by one of the many competent gunsmiths that were active in the 1920's through the 1940's.

Additional comment: I had previously referred as the stock as being an NBA Sporter stock, which it is obviously not. I edited my comment to correct that.

Last edited by Herschel; 11-26-2020 at 04:19 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 11-26-2020, 03:41 PM
JimF JimF is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,303
Default

Iím tending toward Herschelís misgivings . . .

In addition, Iím thinking if it was an Armory build, it would have a radius on the extreme front of the ring . . . .as in their sporters.
__________________
--Jim
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 11-26-2020, 06:13 PM
ilionkid ilionkid is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Wyoming, DE
Posts: 256
Default

How about this 30" barreled one. https://www.gunbroker.com/item/883676669
Mike
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 11-26-2020, 07:51 PM
John Beard John Beard is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Sweet Home Alabama
Posts: 3,425
Default

I concur with Herschel. The rifle is a parts queen cobbled together by a gunsmith.

Happy Thanksgiving! And stay safe!

J.B.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 11-26-2020, 09:35 PM
cplnorton cplnorton is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Van Wert, Ohio
Posts: 2,130
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Herschel View Post
Why would anyone order a Winchester barrel from the DCM when they could get it direct from Winchester? Why would anyone put a match rifle in a C type stock when the superior 1922, aka the NRA stock, was available?

The biggest thing is I do not think you could buy a complete M1903 heavy barreled rifle direct from WRA for very long once SA started production on their heavy barreled rifles. Mostly because WRA did not own the rights to the M1903 receiver and WRA didn't make a M1903 receiver. Also I have never seen any documents that SA sold any loose receivers to Winchester at all. Mostly what I see in that timeframe was WRA was offering a custom conversion of a rifle supplied by the customer (which was initially purchased off the DCM) to the heavy barrel configuration.

When you think about it, once SA was selling a heavy barreled M1903, it wouldn't makes sense that SA would sell their receivers to basically a competitor. Especially since the only thing keeping SA afloat in the 20's and 30's was their commercial sales or their gun-smithing sales. If it wasn't for those outside sales and work, SA could have easily closed.

But on the flip side it makes perfect sense on why WRA would have sold loose heavy barrels to SA. Production of barrels was very expensive and that is why at times Ordnance outsourced them to private commercial companies. Heavy barrels were often made in small lots and it would have been cheaper at times to buy them off a commercial company than it would have been to just produce them internally at SA. Especially since some of these lots of barrels purchased were ordered in small amounts of several dozen or less.

My memory is the series of documents I have, rifle teams were writing SA in the mid 20's and asking what options they had for the purchase of either loose heavy barreled receiver actions or complete heavy barreled rifles to purchase for their shooting teams.

SA replied back that depending on what options they wanted, barrels would be made by WRA, Remington, or by SA themselves.

You could order about any configuration of barrel you wanted, 24'', 26'' or 30'' to name a few. Then there were other different variations of the barrels you could order as well. I remember mentions of medium heavy's, and bull barrels, and different tapers and rifle twists of the barrels.

You also could just buy a heavy barreled action loose and not a complete rifle

I think you guys are thinking in the terms of mass produced rifles such as the NM or NRA sporter, and not thinking that these rifles were usually totally custom. Most of these heavy barreled rifles were made to whatever requirements the buyer was requesting and were one off's.

Basically you could have SA build you any type or rifle you wanted, and SA would often outsource those parts for those custom builds.

In fact those builds didn't stop at just commerical barrels, you could also buy custom commercial stocks, or custom iron sights or telescopic sights on these rifles.

I remember even seeing SA sending loose barreled actions to WRA to have scope blocks mounted at times for these competitive shooters. Because it was easier and cheaper to have WRA do it than it was to produce it in house.

On why a C stock from 1940 could have possibly been installed back then, you have to look at the timeframe when that stock was made. In 1940 SA was only making new C stocks for the M1903. SA was not making all those different variations of stocks in 1940, such as the NRA stock you mentioned earlier.

So if a rifle team wrote SA in 1940 and asked can I buy a replacement stock for my heavy barrel M1903, SA would have replied back we are not making the NRA stock right now, all we have available for purchase that are new are our C stocks. So if they wanted a new stock from SA in 1940, they would have had to buy a C and make it work.

I can confirm this is true for 1940 because I had docs of the Marines writing SA requesting stocks at this time and that is what SA replied back. For the 1940 sniper rifle trials and the team heavy barrel rifles, I have pics of them using the .22 CAL M1922 stocks on them without reinforcing bolts. They would have had to open up the barrel channel and just made them work. If the Marines, who were one of the top National teams at the time, were doing this, imagine what the smaller no name rifle teams were using.

Again, I do want to state as I stated earlier, when you have a rifle built like this, it's hard to prove who built what and when. Traits are very hard to prove without the supported documentation from the Archives.

But I think it's 100% possible that barrel could have been put on by SA. It could have been put on by WRA, or it could have been put on by some private gunsmith.

In my opinion I would not discount this rifle just as a parts rifle because it could have been built by SA and then just had some parts replaced.

Last edited by cplnorton; 11-26-2020 at 09:48 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 11-26-2020, 10:24 PM
cplnorton cplnorton is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Van Wert, Ohio
Posts: 2,130
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by champ0608 View Post
I've seen a much better version of this picture, but can't find it. Sgt John Adkins after winning the 1921 Wimbledon match in the infamous duel with Dad Farr. The two rifles remind me of each other, especially the very plain stock.



As for the gunbroker rifle, to me, the placement of the scope bases seems off compared to the rifles I've seen from that era. Bases were usually on the receiver, or on the barrel butted against the receiver. Strange to see the rear base so far forward. Who knows if that means anything. Just an observation.

I have the docs on these rifles. The Marines called them Free high pressure rifles, or FHP, or sometimes just "Free" rifles.

They had a mix of mostly WRA and Remington heavy barrels. Some of these barrels were purchased loose off WRA and Remington and installed by the Marines at Philly. Some also were purchased in certain years as loose barrels but installed by the manufacturer at their factory.

The Marines also at times ordered heavy barreled loose actions off Springfield Armory and then built a custom rifle on the action.

The Marines not only supplied their rifle teams but sold their builds commercially and to other rifle teams. I remember for instance them supplying a coast guard team. The Marines really did a lot to promote competitive shooting, and also they did I'm sure for the revenue it would acquire.

Herschel is right on the spacing. This was the most common spacing of the day because the barrel wasn't hardened like the receiver. The receivers were extremely difficult to drill until better bits were created in the 30's.

The blocks on this rifle appear to be of the style that WRA made back in the day.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 11-26-2020, 10:46 PM
John Beard John Beard is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Sweet Home Alabama
Posts: 3,425
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cplnorton View Post
... the only thing keeping SA afloat in the 20's and 30's was their commercial sales or their gun-smithing sales. If it wasn't for those outside sales and work, SA could have easily closed.
I respectfully do not concur.

Happy Thanksgiving!

J.B.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:32 AM.