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  #1  
Old 03-12-2017, 07:41 PM
Saluki Saluki is offline
 
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Post My case for doing away with "8.1.5 Standing Prior to Rapid Fire Stages"

I would like to bring something up for discussion.

BLUF: I think that the CMP should do away with rule 8.1.5 Standing Prior to Rapid Fire Stages


Why: It is my understanding that this rule came up for discussion during a phone call between the powers that be over the winter. It is also my understanding that the rule was retained because "thats the way we have always done it".

This if in fact true is unacceptable at this point in time for the following reasons.

1. The CMP is soon going to be the sole proprietor of the National Matches as well as High Power/Service Rifle. The writing is clearly on the wall and as it is, the CMP needs to make swift and sure moves to bring in all shooters, Match as well as Service into the fold. Many match shooters will not shoot CMP because of this rule and who blames them? You go into prep, build your position and then ruin it when you have to stand up. It defeats the purpose of prep time honestly besides getting your stuff situated and is just foolish. We need to make the match more inclusive for the Match rifle shooter. No shooter enjoys having to get up just to sit down and try and get a good string in.

2. A lot of our shooters are getting older. We need to think about that for a long second. There has been an uptick in interest in SR once again with the introduction of optics and I think that is absolutely wonderful. That being said even at 35 I can feel my knees hurt after my time in the Army. A shooter who is older is only going to have more aches and pains and again this goes back int inclusiveness. Not all shooters can stand up and we want this to be an even playing field.

3. Keeping something around, no matter the invalidity of it "just because" is not a just reason to keep around a rule. As rifles have evolved, as the course of fire has evolved, so should the rules surrounding the CMP and high power. The rules committee needs to rethink this rule and honestly look at some other rules that have been to be frank very poorly written. Some might say that this rule is reminiscent of military shooting but this is a false narrative. The rifles that we shoot are not even close to being military issue at this point, and the positions that we shoot with slings are no longer taught as well.

The CMP knows that they are going to be solely owning the National Matches now, and there is going to be a lot more visibility on the CMP with regards to the matches. It is time that they take up the mantle of running the nations preeminent shooting matches and also govern them as they should be. Merging the rules with some of the rules from the NRA does not show weakness but strength and flexibility. It shows that the CMP wants to be an inclusive organization for all shooters, small bore, service rifle & match rifle. This is the direction that the CMP must take if they want to truly succeed.


v/r

Ryan
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  #2  
Old 03-12-2017, 08:16 PM
Roadkingtrax Roadkingtrax is offline
 
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I like standing before rapids.
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  #3  
Old 03-12-2017, 08:24 PM
NMC_EXP NMC_EXP is offline
 
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I respectfully disagree. Particularly with the justification that your position is ruined when you stand up. Being able to get into the correct position quickly is just one more detail in a very long list of required skills.

Years ago I noticed a technique used by some military team shooters for rapid sitting tight cross-legged position). At the end of the prep, they would simply keep the ankles crossed and stand up. When the targets came up, they sat right back into the previously established position.

I thought that was a fine idea so I did it for a couple of seasons. Problem was these guys were in their 20s and weighed 150 lb. I was 40 and 220 lbs. End result was a ruined left knee.

I cannot shoot cross leg sitting anymore because of the knee so I rarely shoot even NRA start rapid fire already on your butt or belly XTC matches. Now about all I shoot is prone.

I'm boring you with this because in my opinion, it is better to leave this segment of the sport with some vestige of its military marksmanship training heritage. This as opposed to changing rules to accommodate the lowest common denominator.

Optics was enough and enough is plenty.
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  #4  
Old 03-12-2017, 08:40 PM
Saluki Saluki is offline
 
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I appreciate your contribution.

I would say this about keeping some of the vestiges of military marksmanship training.

With the addition of optics and the move away from iron sights, we are in fact moving back towards military shooting. Having just left the US Army, I can very certainly tell you that nobody uses iron sights anymore. Also the fact of the matter is that the notion of "service rifle" has been long since left behind and we have long been well away from "military shooting". Currently the Army for one qualifies on a 40 shot, 25-300 meter pop up target course. Currently there are pop up military matches shot at Camp Perry and they are far closer to real military qualifications and training then High Power is.

We use shooting jackets, shooting mats, spotting scopes and a ton of other equipment. Lets face it...not a thing really about service rifle is even remotely related to current military rifle training. The only thing closely related is the platform shot (AR15) and the cartridge.



Quote:
Originally Posted by NMC_EXP View Post
I respectfully disagree. Particularly with the justification that your position is ruined when you stand up. Being able to get into the correct position quickly is just one more detail in a very long list of required skills.

Years ago I noticed a technique used by some military team shooters for rapid sitting tight cross-legged position). At the end of the prep, they would simply keep the ankles crossed and stand up. When the targets came up, they sat right back into the previously established position.

I thought that was a fine idea so I did it for a couple of seasons. Problem was these guys were in their 20s and weighed 150 lb. I was 40 and 220 lbs. End result was a ruined left knee.

I cannot shoot cross leg sitting anymore because of the knee so I rarely shoot even NRA start rapid fire already on your butt or belly XTC matches. Now about all I shoot is prone.

I'm boring you with this because in my opinion, it is better to leave this segment of the sport with some vestige of its military marksmanship training heritage. This as opposed to changing rules to accommodate the lowest common denominator.

Optics was enough and enough is plenty.
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  #5  
Old 03-12-2017, 08:59 PM
Craftsman Craftsman is offline
 
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The rules already allow for a shooter to start in the prone position if physically unable to begin standing and drop down to prone. They must however wait for someone else who started standing to fire first, before they can begin firing. As far as building your position, 80 seconds is more than enough time to re acquire a solid prone position and get off 10 well aimed shots. I'm 54 and sometimes shoot a better rapid fire score than slow fire, last club CMP sanctioned GSM match shot a 89 1-X slow and 96 1-X rapid. Sometime do better with less "thinking" time! So I'm good with leaving it as is which allows those that need to, to start in prone position.
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  #6  
Old 03-12-2017, 09:03 PM
NMC_EXP NMC_EXP is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saluki View Post
I appreciate your contribution.

I would say this about keeping some of the vestiges of military marksmanship training.

With the addition of optics and the move away from iron sights, we are in fact moving back towards military shooting. Having just left the US Army, I can very certainly tell you that nobody uses iron sights anymore. Also the fact of the matter is that the notion of "service rifle" has been long since left behind and we have long been well away from "military shooting". Currently the Army for one qualifies on a 40 shot, 25-300 meter pop up target course. Currently there are pop up military matches shot at Camp Perry and they are far closer to real military qualifications and training then High Power is.

We use shooting jackets, shooting mats, spotting scopes and a ton of other equipment. Lets face it...not a thing really about service rifle is even remotely related to current military rifle training. The only thing closely related is the platform shot (AR15) and the cartridge.
As I see it, the DoD does not give a rip about basic rifle marksmanship. All it wants to do is give a grunt enough skill to hold the target in place until the airpower or artillery arrives.

So I cannot disagree with your point.

DARPA has self guided small arms projectiles on test. What should happen to the rules when those are issued in the field? ;-)
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  #7  
Old 03-13-2017, 03:38 AM
Gewehr43 Gewehr43 is offline
 
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Sir:

I have several comments:

1. I think right now, by far the most popular matches run by the CMP are the "wood matches." That is the M1, M1903 etc matches. The match rifle shooters can't shoot that with their rifles regardless of movements.

2. I looked at the numbers attending the P100 and NTI from 2011-2016. There was a drop in 2014? and in 2016 we started to get back up to 2013 numbers. So I would not (yet) say there is an uptick in participation due to optics.

3. Arguing over a rumor is a waste to me. Either find and quote who said it or find another source.

The CMP IS working with the match rifles and others. The 2017 rules have an "alternate rifle" for the Banned States (6.1.2) and Match rifles (6.1.5).

Finally as a former US Army Infantryman:

The optics they approved are NOT related to the optics in use the our Military. The ACOG and CCO were meant to be zeroed once and left alone. You either used the scale on the reticle of the ACOG or held off with the CCO. The SR optics are used as a magnified iron sight: At each line a new zero is clicked in, there is no holding off done.

What SR matches have taught me is 2 things: marksmanship skills and how to accurize the rifle as best I can. The former is universal- I can use those with my M4, M1 whatever. The latter (using a sling or jacket) is unique to the game we are playing.

So when I'm Infantry I use the same marksmanship skills I learned and adapt them to the kit I'm using (FLC etc...)

That's the "good" that comes out of SR...........

Same thing with the "movements." Their use is a building block or "another skill" to acquire. What I mean is when I go hunting and see game, If I can I move to the best position I can to ensure a hit. When I've been in combat, same thing.

Likewise: Moving to cover and returning fire is a centuries old Military concept that works...............Why not have in these matches?
It's still used today as a matter of fact..........

Next time you shoot 300yds, imagine you suddenly see an enemy patrol......... so you get down (to present a smaller target, perhaps get behind a tree stump and get into a more stable firing position) and then return fire in 70 seconds before the enemy moves out of sight........
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Last edited by Gewehr43; 03-13-2017 at 04:17 AM.
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  #8  
Old 03-13-2017, 05:40 AM
martydabney martydabney is offline
 
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i'm not a fan of standing before rapids, though I've shot my personal best from standing. standing there like a little girl trying not to pee her pants before sitting isn't that appealing to me but I only shoot CMP matches at Perry once a year so I deal with it.
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  #9  
Old 03-13-2017, 06:41 AM
HighpowerRifleBrony HighpowerRifleBrony is offline
 
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Meh.
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  #10  
Old 03-13-2017, 09:07 AM
Herzo Herzo is offline
 
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At 73, getting into the sitting position from standing is not particularly fun. Shooting with the CMP is.
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