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  #11  
Old 03-13-2017, 10:31 AM
Scout706 Scout706 is offline
 
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Y'all have wussed out ever since switching to metallic cartridges!
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  #12  
Old 03-16-2017, 08:38 AM
rickgman rickgman is offline
 
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Personally, I agree with Saluki. I see no compelling reason to retain the standing requirement. If some folks are starting out in the prone or seated position, why not everyone? It obviously isn't a critical skill to get back into position quickly and repeatedly if some folks aren't doing it now (regardless of the reason). As for figuring out how to more repeatedly get into the seated position by starting out with your legs crossed, that's strictly gamesmanship and means nothing with respect to marksmanship. Long ago, service rifle competition began an evolution to be more like a conventional target sport and less like a martial art so I see little reason to retain something as minor as the standing requirement.
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  #13  
Old 03-16-2017, 11:09 AM
cranehunter cranehunter is offline
 
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Some people are as bad as my students.

"What?? I have to move?"

I like the action portion, it is part of the game. I don't want to just shoot from a bench.
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  #14  
Old 03-16-2017, 11:22 AM
Saluki Saluki is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cranehunter View Post
Some people are as bad as my students.

"What?? I have to move?"

I like the action portion, it is part of the game. I don't want to just shoot from a bench.
Seriously?

You are the bench, and you clearly in no way shape or form are shooting from anything remotely resembling a bench ie. benchrest.

If you want "action" then go shoot 3 gun, PRS, IDPA or any other number of tactical shooting disciplines. There are plenty. Either way nothing is "action" oriented about High Power outside of maybe "rapid fire".

This comes down to a few things.

1. Safety
2. Evolving and helping this sport to survive.


There are many on this forum who do not want to change anything in high power and hated the optics change over. You also do not like the fact that electronic scoring is coming. I am fighting for the survival of HP because on it's current trajectory, this sport is going to DIE. It is not something that is openly talked about on this forum but I am just going to say it. High Power is dying and for it to survive, let alone start to regain ground and possibly flourish we have to make changes. We have to evolve and get all of the traction that we possibly can. If that means changing some archaic rule that nobody really knows why is still in place then I say change it. Youth do not want to shoot some sport that is slow, not fun to shoot and at times is just flat out boring. The games matches are popular now but in 15-20 years will not be nearly as popular due to participants literally dying off. Literally 300 people shot in the NRA portion of nationals last year. Let that sink in. 300....down from what in the 1970's??? So changes need to be made if High Power is going to survive.
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  #15  
Old 03-16-2017, 12:36 PM
kraigwy kraigwy is offline
 
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I also disagree. Granted we drifted a long ways from the intent that HP trains for combat, but there are still some aspects that apply.

When I first started shooting leg matches, you were required to use (then) DCM ammo, no ground cloths, and you had to load from the person. The Rapid Fire Times were faster also, 50 sec Setting and 60 Sec. Prone.

I got old like everyone else but I can still shoot a good RF stage with those times, even with a bolt gun.

After I got my DR badge I got away from HP for a while. And like everyone else I got older. I attended a match and was told, do to my age, I didn't have to stand in rapid fire. Just wait until someone else, who stood, fire before I start shooting.

I tried that, worse rapid fire state I shot since I started shooting. It threw off my timing something terrible.

I'll soon be 70. A few practice RF stages before I shoot a match gets me in shape.

No sir, I'd like to keep the Standing to Prone/Setting rule.
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  #16  
Old 03-16-2017, 12:59 PM
Gewehr43 Gewehr43 is offline
 
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Saluki:

Firstly............ if you want to propose a rule change.......... write it up and submit it............ nothing is stopping you.......... go ahead..........

Secondly......... this question of "moving" has been discussed/cussed for years now........... years........... This is nothing new.

Thirdly........... You are convinced the numbers of shooters is dropping and the "sport is going to die".... ok. But there is no way in the world you can say that is due to these "moves." You can't tell me that if the "moves" were dropped that participation would jump. (Instead there could be several reasons why numbers ebb and flow).

Fourth: I explained to you why it isn't an "archaic rule" that "noone really knows why is still in place."

Here:
"......Likewise: Moving to cover and returning fire is a centuries old Military concept that works...............Why not have in these matches?
It's still used today as a matter of fact.......... "


So instead: YOU think it's archaic and YOU don't know why the rule is still in place.

Finally I'm confused:

-Why would you bring up the numbers for the NRA? The numbers for the CMP games are available.... some reason you can't use those?

But, I guess, to reply to your comment........Have you considered the idea that the NRA doesn't require "moving" and so since their numbers are only 300 shooters............ under your logic......... if the CMP does away with "moving"............ their numbers will plummet too............. ????
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Last edited by Gewehr43; 03-16-2017 at 01:24 PM.
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  #17  
Old 03-16-2017, 01:00 PM
missilegeek missilegeek is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saluki View Post
I am fighting for the survival of HP because on it's current trajectory, this sport is going to DIE. It is not something that is openly talked about on this forum but I am just going to say it. High Power is dying and for it to survive, let alone start to regain ground and possibly flourish we have to make changes.
Before changing the sport - and inevitably losing/angering some current competitors - how about promoting it instead? CMP absolutely refuses to do this. NRA doesn't either. I guess the non-shooting CMP rules committee knows best.... It certainly seems like they're competing with each other to see who can change the sport faster.... Heck, NRA Highpower is now basically "position" F-Class. The only really "traditional" sport left is Palma.

As has been discussed in the Highpower community for ages (the group the rule makers aren't part of and ignore): Rule changes in a sport no one hears about will bring exactly zero new competitors.

Not every sport can or should appeal to everyone. Trying to make it much more "inclusive" will kill it faster than anything by removing everything that made it unique.

I'm sure the next big idea, when the recent changes fail to bring in a horde of new customers, will be to change the COF or allow bipods.
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Service Pistol: 1903-2014

Last edited by missilegeek; 03-16-2017 at 01:21 PM.
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  #18  
Old 03-16-2017, 01:17 PM
Gewehr43 Gewehr43 is offline
 
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ok........ I'll ask this too:

So you say this:
"Youth do not want to shoot some sport that is slow, not fun to shoot and at times is just flat out boring."

But you say this too:

"If you want "action" then go shoot 3 gun, PRS, IDPA or any other number of tactical shooting disciplines. There are plenty. Either way nothing is "action" oriented about High Power outside of maybe "rapid fire".

Ok.......... so you think youth aren't interested in SR because it's slow and boring.............. which could be true..............

But then you want to take the one "action" thing out of SR and make it even more boring........... like literally sitting or laying around........

But you think the Youth will be more interested in SR.............. ???
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  #19  
Old 03-16-2017, 01:25 PM
cranehunter cranehunter is offline
 
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Location: Monroe, WI
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saluki View Post
Seriously?

You are the bench, and you clearly in no way shape or form are shooting from anything remotely resembling a bench ie. benchrest.

If you want "action" then go shoot 3 gun, PRS, IDPA or any other number of tactical shooting disciplines. There are plenty. Either way nothing is "action" oriented about High Power outside of maybe "rapid fire".

This comes down to a few things.

1. Safety
2. Evolving and helping this sport to survive.


There are many on this forum who do not want to change anything in high power and hated the optics change over. You also do not like the fact that electronic scoring is coming. I am fighting for the survival of HP because on it's current trajectory, this sport is going to DIE. It is not something that is openly talked about on this forum but I am just going to say it. High Power is dying and for it to survive, let alone start to regain ground and possibly flourish we have to make changes. We have to evolve and get all of the traction that we possibly can. If that means changing some archaic rule that nobody really knows why is still in place then I say change it. Youth do not want to shoot some sport that is slow, not fun to shoot and at times is just flat out boring. The games matches are popular now but in 15-20 years will not be nearly as popular due to participants literally dying off. Literally 300 people shot in the NRA portion of nationals last year. Let that sink in. 300....down from what in the 1970's??? So changes need to be made if High Power is going to survive.
Yes, you are the bench. You have to build your position in the alloted time as part of the stage. There is no safety issue. Yes I am looking at shooting 3 gun as well.

Bottom line, if you don't like it, don't shoot it. Don't buy a house next to a farm and then complain about the smell.

Last edited by cranehunter; 03-16-2017 at 01:45 PM.
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  #20  
Old 03-16-2017, 05:44 PM
rickgman rickgman is offline
 
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Gentlemen, I think that folks are talking about a number of things at once and maybe getting them confused. Firstly, Saluki stated that he felt that retaining the standing requirement prior to rapid fire wasn't something that should continue. I agree. There isn't any compelling reason for it to continue now that everyone doesn't do it now. My question is "Will eliminating that requirement really help"? It will eliminate a few minutes associated with getting competitors back into a standing position after their prep time. I honestly don't know if that is significant but I guess it is in the right direction since SR matches do take a lot of time. There is little doubt that long drawn out matches add to shooter dissatisfaction. In my mind, the real gain will be going to electronic targets. That will happen in the near future. Eliminating alibis (with the exception of range alibis) was also helpful. The second point that Saluki mentioned further down in the thread was that some folks are highly resistant to change. That certainly is true but part of the resistance has to do with change being poorly implemented and poorly communicated. When there are rule changes, it is often sort of a big surprise, there is no rationale to support the change and the wording of the rule changes often requires some level of interpretation. Rules should not need interpretation. They need to be clear and concise. Without getting nasty, the CMP Rules Committee needs to improve their game. Saluki also mentioned that SR does not currently seem to appeal to younger shooters. That's the truth. Perhaps it never will but I feel that making matches shorter and more enjoyable will help.
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