Go Back   CMP Forums > CMP Competitions > CMP Rules
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old 03-16-2017, 06:32 PM
Gewehr43 Gewehr43 is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 1,935
Default

Rick:
-If you or anyone wish to try to get this changed.... write the letter.. go ahead. So don't take my comments as anything but just my opinion.....

-The reason they started allowing persons with medical issues to remain seated was due to trying to allow as many people to shoot as possible (which is what we all want). Then the NRA stopped enforcing the medical side of it so the camel got in the tent.

To me, that's not the same as there isn't a compelling reason to stand, instead the rules stopped being enforced.

To me the compelling reason to stand is to train the way you fight.....

Yes, there are numerous numerous reasons that help/hurt participation in the CMP matches.

I also agree the CMP rules Commitee doesn't do a good job of communicating.............

The reason people "are resistant to change" isn't because of change.......... it's because the changes are being done without any benefit coming from them. Change just for the sake of change is.... well......goofy.

I'm not sure I agree with the idea that SR doesn't appeal to Youth. There were and are ALOT of juniors at the Nationals..........
But regardless.......... if you are worried about " making matches shorter and more enjoyable will help" ...............then the answer is getting rid of standing and 600 prone. With Prep etc......... each shooter is taking around 30minutes each...........there would be no savings in time if you remained in position, none. You'd still have a 3 minute prep and 60/70s to shoot. That is how it works under NRA rules.

(the same NRA who had 300? shooters last year compared to the 12-1300? in the CMP matches?)

Or as you suggest..... using electronic targets would speed things up. But even the electronic targets can have issues and make for a long day.....
__________________
Service Rifle.... RIP .... 1884-2015

Last edited by Gewehr43; 03-16-2017 at 06:47 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 03-16-2017, 06:50 PM
aloreman aloreman is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Fl
Posts: 2,872
Default

Alot more matches than just nationals
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 03-16-2017, 06:57 PM
Gewehr43 Gewehr43 is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 1,935
Default

Alot more cats than dogs too.......... ?
__________________
Service Rifle.... RIP .... 1884-2015
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 03-16-2017, 07:31 PM
rickgman rickgman is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Michigan
Posts: 791
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gewehr43 View Post
To me the compelling reason to stand is to train the way you fight.....
I certainly agree that training the way one fights is an important goal. However, I am not so sure that SR is really training as it relates to fighting. I am not saying that SR competition doesn't hone certain important marksmanship skills but it is only marginally resembles combat shooting. If it was, the targets would look more like E type targets - not bullseye targets. If you think that making the transition from standing to prone or sitting is beneficial, I would not argue the matter with you but I personally don't think it makes any real difference in the overall scheme of things. Just my two cents worth.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 03-16-2017, 09:34 PM
Gewehr43 Gewehr43 is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 1,935
Default

Rick:

Those are some valid points and I don't mean that SR is the end-all-be-all but it does, to me have some value:

What SR matches have taught me is 2 things: marksmanship skills and how to accurize the rifle as best I can. The former is universal- I can use those with my M4, M1 whatever. The latter (using a sling or jacket) is unique to the game we are playing.

So when I'm Infantry I use the same marksmanship skills I learned and adapt them to the kit I'm using (FLC etc...)

That's the "good" that comes out of SR...........

Same thing with the "movements." Their use is a building block or "another skill" to acquire. What I mean is when I go hunting and see game, If I can, I move to the best position I can to ensure a hit.

It's not the specific movement you're building on (There I am slung up standing there waiting for a round target to appear etc etc) but what to do when you see a target/deer/ threat appear............

PS: You should check out the "Rattle Battle" (National Trophy Infantry team match) held every year at Perry.
It's shot using fire teams, advancing movements and the "E" targets............
Camp Perry isn't just bullseye shooting...............
__________________
Service Rifle.... RIP .... 1884-2015

Last edited by Gewehr43; 03-16-2017 at 09:42 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 03-17-2017, 10:33 AM
Greg Ficklin Greg Ficklin is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: South Carolina
Posts: 576
Default

The fact that the standing requirement has been in place for over 100 years is significant. Like the standard of a baseball diamond, and distance from home plate to the pitcher, it provides continuity that relates directly to the past so that scores and records are relevant in comparison to history. In the case CMP Games events, the rifles, course of fire, and positions directly relate to standard military marksmanship training experienced by our greatest generation, and those before them. As technology marches on, equipment changes, but we preserve as much of the game as we can, in appreciation, and emulation of generations before us. Standing for rapid strings is a standard that every military, and civilian shooter must master to excel in CMP competition. The fact that it hurts your scores is proof that you may need to work on perfecting it in your game.
__________________
Distinguished Rifleman #2198
NRA HP XTC High Master (service rifle)
NRA Patron Life member
PCGC Junior Team coach
CMP GSM Master Inst.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 03-17-2017, 11:04 AM
Craftsman Craftsman is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: South Florida
Posts: 6,808
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Ficklin View Post
The fact that the standing requirement has been in place for over 100 years is significant. Like the standard of a baseball diamond, and distance from home plate to the pitcher, it provides continuity that relates directly to the past so that scores and records are relevant in comparison to history. In the case CMP Games events, the rifles, course of fire, and positions directly relate to standard military marksmanship training experienced by our greatest generation, and those before them. As technology marches on, equipment changes, but we preserve as much of the game as we can, in appreciation, and emulation of generations before us. Standing for rapid strings is a standard that every military, and civilian shooter must master to excel in CMP competition. The fact that it hurts your scores is proof that you may need to work on perfecting it in your game.
Well said!
__________________
Grandfathers - Both WWI US Army Vets, Tank Corps & Corps of Engineers
Uncle - WWII US Army Infantry - European Theater
Dad - US Army Infantry - Post Korean War

VFW Patriots Circle Member
NRA Life Member
PMRPC - CMP/GSM Rifle Match Chairman
GSM Master Instructor
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 03-17-2017, 11:44 AM
NMC_EXP NMC_EXP is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Colorado
Posts: 209
Default

re: the concern that course of fire changes are required to keep CMP service rifle alive

I started off shooting DCM matches in about 1980. My home club was 200 yards with pits and a nice facility. There were 10 firing points for a range capacity of 40. They averaged 35 competitors per event up through the late 90's. This range was a training ground for our state junior teams.

There were a lot of juniors in the program back then. So many that one year the state sent 12 junior teams to Camp Perry. The State Assoc. was scraping so far down in the barrel for Jr team coaches I was drafted to do so.

By year 2000 this club was averaging 8 gray haired competitors per match and juniors were nearly extinct.

From what I see, NRA Highpower participation is way down as well.

For a variety of reasons, highpower competition is in decline. Start with anti-gun indoctrination in schools and take it all the way to an instant gratification plus 10 second attention span mindset.

They simply have no interest in an activity that demands intense concentration, attention to detail, and long periods of working rather than pulling a trigger.

If the sport is dying, don't dilute it down to the lowest common denominator. Let it go with some vestige of dignity still intact.

As to the history of the National Match Course, the DCM was created in 1903 to improve civilian marksmanship skills. DCM was replaced by the CMP in 1996.

Ray Maketa and Hap Rocketto are the historians. Unfortunately, Ray's excellent articles were posted on German Salazar's 'Rifleman's Journal" web site. Salazar has closed it down, locked it up and that is a damned shame.

If any CMP honchos are reading this, I have a request:

German Salazar is double, maybe triple Distinguished. His web site contains a wealth of historical info that ought to be preserved and put in the public domain, if Salazar is willing.

If CMP could talk him into donating those history articles for it's archives, that would be a fine thing.
__________________
“After all is said and done, successful rifle shooting on the range is nothing more than first finding a rifle and lot of ammunition which will do precisely the same thing shot after shot, and then developing the same skill in the rifleman.” ~ Capt. E. C. Crossman (Book of the Springfield)
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 03-17-2017, 04:37 PM
rickgman rickgman is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Michigan
Posts: 791
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Ficklin View Post
The fact that the standing requirement has been in place for over 100 years is significant. Like the standard of a baseball diamond, and distance from home plate to the pitcher, it provides continuity that relates directly to the past so that scores and records are relevant in comparison to history.
Well not really. Once there was a transition from the 5V target to the decimal target in the 60's, there was no longer any comparison between historical records and modern records. I, too, enjoy the history of marksmanship competition but so many things have changed over the 100 plus years of service rifle competition that there is little that is really comparable. Just saying ....
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 03-17-2017, 11:42 PM
Greg Ficklin Greg Ficklin is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: South Carolina
Posts: 576
Default

The CMP should reinstate the participation requirement to purchase rifles from the CMP.
It was the participation requirement of the DCM to have 150 rounds for record in DCM M1 clinics or NM course of fire that started me 27 years ago. I was an enlisted Marine and had no idea that I could shoot and compete as a civilian the way I learned to shoot at Paris Island, until I saw a club clinic flyer in a gun store. It is the same today. Had it not been a process to channel my desire of an M1 into participation, and education about a world right under my nose, I would not be a Distinguished Rifleman, or any other achievement in the shooting world. It all started with wanting a DCM Garand.
__________________
Distinguished Rifleman #2198
NRA HP XTC High Master (service rifle)
NRA Patron Life member
PCGC Junior Team coach
CMP GSM Master Inst.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:37 PM.