Go Back   CMP Forums > CMP Competitions > CMP Rules
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 05-01-2017, 10:10 PM
Jeremy2171 Jeremy2171 is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 763
Default Vintage semi-autos removal from "modern" category.

While getting ready for Butner I noticed that all "foreign" semi-autos from WW2 on up were all lumped into the "modern" category... with it's higher scores for medals as well... Kinda hard to go against scoped ARs with a WW2 semi...

I "personally" think the WW2 early 50's stuff should be in "vintage" with their peer.... so here is what I sent to CMP hoping for a rule change...

-----

My argument for the changing of the following rules is to allow “vintage” semi-autos to compete along with the “vintage” bolt action rifle and not against the “modern” rifles. Up until the modern military category was created the only place these rifles could compete was in the Sniper match. Ironically…those semi-autos are listed as “vintage” on table 7 (list of sniper rifles and scopes).

I am working on the assumption that the last “vintage” bolt gun would be the Madsen M47 as it was produced in small numbers for Columbia around 1958. Using a similar cutoff date for the semi-autos would allow us to include all the WW2 and immediate postwar semi-autos while leaving those chambered in the new NATO/ Warsaw Pact calibers in the “modern” category.

If this change were to happen… the following semi-auto rifles would now compete in the “vintage” match:
German G41/G43 and possibly the new semi auto clones currently being marketed such as the FG42 and StG 44 types.
Russian SVT38/40
France MAS-44, 49 and 49/56
Sweden AG42
Egypt Hakim
Belgium FN49
US M1918 BAR semi clones

As written:
4.2.5 As-Issued Foreign Military Rifle
The rifle must be a rifle that was issued by the Armed Forces of a country other than the U. S. and be in as-issued condition. All as-issued foreign military rifles must be manually operated bolt-action or straight-pull rifles. Semi-automatic or fully automatic rifles are not permitted

Changed:
4.2.5 As-Issued Foreign Military Rifle
The rifle must be a rifle that was issued by the Armed Forces of a country other than the U. S. and be in as-issued condition. All as-issued foreign military rifles must be manually operated bolt-action or straight-pull rifles or Semi-automatic. No fully automatic rifles are permitted.

Added:
m) Rifles in caliber 5.56 (.223), 7.62x39 or 7.62x51(.308) are not allowed.


Also on pg.42 under rule 5.2.4 (c) regarding weights of modern military rifles….remove the references to the SVT and FN-49.

---------

Anyways.... just my idea...I'm sure I missed something but I don't see why it would be too difficult to put these rifles in the right place...
__________________
Semper Fi....
USMC ret..
https://www.facebook.com/groups/327919724346058/ M1 Garand Enthusiasts Group
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1715468131859756/ CMP Travel Games FB Group
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 05-01-2017, 11:21 PM
ceresco ceresco is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 6,815
Default

Without getting bogged down in the intricate details: the semiautomatic rifles proposed to shoot against the bolt rifles will be only slightly more competitive in their new class than they were against scoped ARs. The vintage bolt class works pretty well and adding the semi autos just moves a problem into it. The MM class needs to have the post A1 M16 types and scoped rifles removed or set apart. This change will then allow the M14 to dominate the class and the whole issue can start again. In short, there is no easy solution to certain rifles dominating the various classes. I shot a FN49 in MM and own many of the others currently allowed. Sadly they will probably never be used...the Tokarev and MAS have no chance at all. Keep in mind that Carcanos and Arisakas aren't used much either. CMP gets to make the rules and this will never be a perfect world. Good Shooting. ...
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 05-02-2017, 06:43 AM
Rootsy Rootsy is online now
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Monroe, Michigan
Posts: 1,825
Default

The Creedmoor East MM match was won with a M1A.... that was BORROWED from another shooter because the match winner's AR was deemed outside of the rules at rifle inspection.

Concentrate on shooting better, understanding your rifle and less worrying about your equipment rank. The 10 ring is 3.5 MOA on the SR. Most rifles can handle that pretty easily. Most shooters can't.
__________________
Distinguished Rifleman #2297
CMP GSM Master Instructor
NRA Certified RSO
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 05-02-2017, 08:12 AM
Jeremy2171 Jeremy2171 is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 763
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rootsy View Post
The Creedmoor East MM match was won with a M1A.... that was BORROWED from another shooter because the match winner's AR was deemed outside of the rules at rifle inspection.

Concentrate on shooting better, understanding your rifle and less worrying about your equipment rank. The 10 ring is 3.5 MOA on the SR. Most rifles can handle that pretty easily. Most shooters can't.
This requested rule change has nothing to do with M1A or ARs. By your own comments you saying there shouldn't be any different classes.

I however think a 1940 rifle shouldn't have to be classed against a 2017 rifle purely because it's a semi-auto.

If it's a "vintage" rifle it should be in the vintage class...semi or not...

I also don't see any problems adding in vintage semi's into the vintage rifle category..
__________________
Semper Fi....
USMC ret..
https://www.facebook.com/groups/327919724346058/ M1 Garand Enthusiasts Group
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1715468131859756/ CMP Travel Games FB Group
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 05-02-2017, 10:51 AM
ceresco ceresco is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 6,815
Default

ARs (scoped or not) will hold the ten ring. A good M14 (type) may. The MM (Eastern Games-not Creedmoor) was won in offhand by one of the top shooters in the country. The M14s will come close enough to ARs that offhand can decide....but the AR is still ahead. Still not clear to me whether scopes are allowed on M14s and exactly how this will affect things. I hope CMP will leave the GSV matches alone and address the MM issues separately. Good Shooting. ..
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 05-02-2017, 05:41 PM
Ryan V Ryan V is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: South West, MI
Posts: 786
Default

That was Till. He could, with a M14, make P100 and LEG out in one year if he had to start that chase over.

Typical rules do not apply to him. LOL

If you are telling Phil (Ceresco) to concentrate on shooting better, he shoots just fine.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 05-02-2017, 07:05 PM
Rootsy Rootsy is online now
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Monroe, Michigan
Posts: 1,825
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan V View Post
That was Till. He could, with a M14, make P100 and LEG out in one year if he had to start that chase over.

Typical rules do not apply to him. LOL

If you are telling Phil (Ceresco) to concentrate on shooting better, he shoots just fine.
I was replying to the OP not Phil. And you, Ryan, are just as capable as Nick
__________________
Distinguished Rifleman #2297
CMP GSM Master Instructor
NRA Certified RSO
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 05-02-2017, 07:24 PM
Jeremy2171 Jeremy2171 is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 763
Default

My particular shooting ability or equipment is irrelevant...

What's relevant is 1940 rifles incorrectly classed with 2016 rifles...and how to get them correctly classed with their peers.
__________________
Semper Fi....
USMC ret..
https://www.facebook.com/groups/327919724346058/ M1 Garand Enthusiasts Group
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1715468131859756/ CMP Travel Games FB Group
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 05-02-2017, 07:30 PM
Ryan V Ryan V is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: South West, MI
Posts: 786
Default

Thanks Root, I can still have a man crush on him thought right?
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 05-02-2017, 07:45 PM
Rootsy Rootsy is online now
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Monroe, Michigan
Posts: 1,825
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan V View Post
Thanks Root, I can still have a man crush on him thought right?
Sure but no holding hands and stuff when going to the pits or anything...
__________________
Distinguished Rifleman #2297
CMP GSM Master Instructor
NRA Certified RSO
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:39 PM.