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  #11  
Old 05-03-2017, 10:52 AM
OKC_Jim OKC_Jim is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ceresco View Post
The MM class needs to have the post A1 M16 types and scoped rifles removed or set apart.
I could see the above being done and it making some sense.

As for putting old semi autos in the same class as their bolt action brothers because they aren't competitive against newer semi-autos, are old semi autos competitive with the rifles typically shot in vintage bolt action? I know my MAS 49/56 doesn't hold a candle to my K31.
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  #12  
Old 05-03-2017, 05:07 PM
Jeremy2171 Jeremy2171 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OKC_Jim View Post
As for putting old semi autos in the same class as their bolt action brothers because they aren't competitive against newer semi-autos, are old semi autos competitive with the rifles typically shot in vintage bolt action? I know my MAS 49/56 doesn't hold a candle to my K31.
We don't know as they haven't ever been allowed to compete...

But I do know the AG42 and FN49s are darn accurate. My G43s are pretty good as well. The worst of the bunch would likely be the SVT40...IMHO.

However I've not put a lot of effort into working up great loads for these rifles since there was no match to shoot them in. If the rules change I'll be doing some load development for sure.
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  #13  
Old 05-03-2017, 09:10 PM
ceresco ceresco is online now
 
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Well, there is a class for them...Modern Military. You will get beaten by more accurate rifles, but there is nothing to prevent you from shooting your FN49, AG42 or any of the other rifles on the list. If you are interested in how various rifles perform go to Competition Tracker and check out the results from Camp Perry and the regional games. Good Shooting. ..
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  #14  
Old 05-03-2017, 09:24 PM
Jeremy2171 Jeremy2171 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ceresco View Post
Well, there is a class for them...Modern Military. You will get beaten by more accurate rifles, but there is nothing to prevent you from shooting your FN49, AG42 or any of the other rifles on the list. If you are interested in how various rifles perform go to Competition Tracker and check out the results from Camp Perry and the regional games. Good Shooting. ..
"vintage" semi-autos rifles don't belong in "modern military"...unless ALL vintage rifles also belong there...

CMP has already called them "vintage" elsewhere in the rule book...time for them to put them where they properly belong.

I don't see on the tracker where weapon type is mentioned..
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  #15  
Old 05-03-2017, 10:12 PM
Polaris Polaris is offline
 
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I've always thought it was funny also, that one could shoot a 1969 mfg Finnish M39 in vintage class, but not a 1939 SVT38 or similar.

There are some great rifles out there. Interesting design period, bridging the gap between bolt guns and the modern concept of battle rifle or assault rifle. No, an SVT 40 or Hakim is not likely to outscore a good shooter with an M96 or K-31, but IMHO half the point of these matches is to get the old safe queens out to the range.
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  #16  
Old 05-03-2017, 10:20 PM
Roadkingtrax Roadkingtrax is offline
 
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Shoot what you want and have fun.

If you care about CMP trinkets, shoot what's in the rules.
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  #17  
Old 05-04-2017, 12:25 AM
OKC_Jim OKC_Jim is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeremy2171 View Post
While getting ready for Butner I noticed that all "foreign" semi-autos from WW2 on up were all lumped into the "modern" category...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeremy2171 View Post
We don't know as they haven't ever been allowed to compete...
Jeremy, which is it, they were all lumped into modern military, or they haven't been allowed to compete? Or, did the scope of the thread expand? In the beginning I thought you were arguing for placing early semi autos in the same class as bolt actions, but now I wonder if you are wanting to add rifles to the mix that aren't currently in the mix?

If you are arguing for moving early semi autos from modern military to vintage bolt action, what was the matter with Ceresco's suggestion?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ceresco View Post
The MM class needs to have the post A1 M16 types and scoped rifles removed or set apart.
Maybe have class A&B rifles in two actual separate classes instead of scored against each other?

If you are wanting to add rifles to the mix, isn't that covered? Under the Class B Modern Military rules it says:

Quote:
The CMP Competition staff may establish appropriate weight limits for other as-issued rifles or production-type Modern Military Rifles upon request and the presentation of documentation regarding the rifle.
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  #18  
Old 05-04-2017, 06:42 AM
Jeremy2171 Jeremy2171 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OKC_Jim View Post
Jeremy, which is it, they were all lumped into modern military, or they haven't been allowed to compete? Or, did the scope of the thread expand? In the beginning I thought you were arguing for placing early semi autos in the same class as bolt actions, but now I wonder if you are wanting to add rifles to the mix that aren't currently in the mix?

If you are arguing for moving early semi autos from modern military to vintage bolt action, what was the matter with Ceresco's suggestion?
They are all lumped into modern military and haven't been allowed to compete in vintage. My position is clear as stated in my first post.

Cerescos suggestion? That was to leave everything as-is...??
Quote:
Originally Posted by OKC_Jim View Post

Maybe have class A&B rifles in two actual separate classes instead of scored against each other?

If you are wanting to add rifles to the mix, isn't that covered? Under the Class B Modern Military rules it says:
Not adding any rifles.... trying to get the 1940 semi's scored with the 1940 bolt guns..simple as that...nothing more nothing less.....
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  #19  
Old 05-04-2017, 10:36 AM
canes7 canes7 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rootsy View Post
The Creedmoor East MM match was won with a M1A.... that was BORROWED from another shooter because the match winner's AR was deemed outside of the rules at rifle inspection.

Concentrate on shooting better, understanding your rifle and less worrying about your equipment rank. The 10 ring is 3.5 MOA on the SR. Most rifles can handle that pretty easily. Most shooters can't.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan V View Post
That was Till. He could, with a M14, make P100 and LEG out in one year if he had to start that chase over.

Typical rules do not apply to him. LOL

If you are telling Phil (Ceresco) to concentrate on shooting better, he shoots just fine.
So Nick Till from "Team CMP" had an AR DQ'ed because it didn't meet the rules? That's hilarious.

As for how t divide up the rules it'll never be fair. Just shoot what you want to shoot. If you want to win medals, pick a rifle capable of winning. DO you go to the track and pick a losing horse on purpose? Only if you are playing against the odds. Same with trying to win a match with a known inaccurate rifle.
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  #20  
Old 05-04-2017, 11:22 AM
OKC_Jim OKC_Jim is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeremy2171 View Post
Cerescos suggestion? That was to leave everything as-is...??.
Maybe I am misunderstanding what Ceresco meant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ceresco View Post
The MM class needs to have the post A1 M16 types and scoped rifles removed or set apart.
To me that looks like suggestion to have rifles that came after the M16A1 and scoped rifles removed, or to score them separately from those that came before. We already have class A and B in modern military. If a change needs to be made, why not just score the two classes separately from each other?
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