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  #11  
Old 07-25-2017, 08:58 AM
rickgman rickgman is online now
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hrfunk View Post
I think part of the confusion, for me anyway, is what constitutes an "as issued" rifle these days? Every time you see a photo of someone in the armed forces, it seems like they are carrying a different configuration of the AR15 platform. You see different hand guard/rail systems, different stocks, different sights, and I have to believe some of them are using two stage triggers.
When we are talking about current standard service rifles (e.g., M4's), they have one stage triggers. However, Mk 12 SPR's have two stage triggers (specifically KAC triggers) but the SPR's by definition are not standard service rifles.
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  #12  
Old 07-25-2017, 06:28 PM
Max Power Max Power is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rickgman View Post
Guys, I don't know how you can rationalize using a two stage trigger on an AR when there is a prohibition as to "special accurizing or match conditioning". Two stage triggers are not as-issue triggers on M4's or M16's and are match triggers. Not being caught doesn't constitute meeting the intention of the equipment rules. Just my two cents worth.
I suspect if you showed up with an actual "as-issued" M4 or M16 trigger, they wouldn't let you shoot the match. Though you probably wouldn't need the entire 80 seconds to shoot the rapid fire stage.

I've had my Modern Military rifle inspected by CMP armorers at least four separate times. I can assure you the fact that I am nonetheless allowed to shoot isn't because I haven't "been caught" yet. And I haven't been relegated to the "unlimited" class either.

I don't know how you can rationalize your accusation of cheating based on what is certainly a minority interpretation of the most vague rule in the book.
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  #13  
Old 07-25-2017, 07:44 PM
canes7 canes7 is offline
 
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We all had a good laugh when 4 soldiers form Ft. Benning showed up to the Eastern Games in 2016 with rifles that had happy switches. It turns out an as-issued match does not allow as-issued rifles. Who knew?
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  #14  
Old 07-25-2017, 07:55 PM
rickgman rickgman is online now
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Max Power View Post

I don't know how you can rationalize your accusation of cheating based on what is certainly a minority interpretation of the most vague rule in the book.
I never stated that anyone was cheating. Those are your words. As for vague rules, the book is full of them and that's a significant problem in my mind.

As for my personal interpretation of the rules, I simply go to this statement "No special accurizing is permitted except that a non-adjustable sling swivel may be attached to the forward end of the handguard". Since single stage triggers have been used on all issue M16's and M4's, it seems logical to me that use of a 2 stage trigger (which were developed for match use) constitutes "special accurizing". Of course, only the CMP's interpretation counts.
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  #15  
Old 07-25-2017, 08:29 PM
Hrfunk Hrfunk is offline
 
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My thoughts, precisely. I emailed this question to CMP earlier today. I am awaiting a response.
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  #16  
Old 07-26-2017, 12:00 AM
tjtorborg tjtorborg is offline
 
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I specifically asked this question at the Range Officer class I took at Perry this year. Their response was it didn't matter as long as it could lift 4.5lbs it was good to go. I even asked specifically about Geissle triggers. Again they said it was legal as long as it could hold the weight.
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  #17  
Old 07-26-2017, 03:42 PM
Ham_Chu Ham_Chu is offline
 
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When I was among the 75% of the shooters flagged for post-match inspection, they checked the trigger. Nothing more.

I asked him to weigh my scoped M4gery, as I used a fish scale and was worried...and who better to weigh it. Armorer rolled his eyes, turned on the digital scale, and weighed his first rifle of the day. I was SOOOOOO paranoid about the 8.5 lbs max weight. 7.7lbs.

Speaking of the 2 stage, I had a gorgeous 2 stage RRA trigger, that I swapped out for bootleg USGI trigger, of about 9 pounds, the night before the match. Only b/c visually, it was obvious that the RRA was not USGI. I didn't want to get the dreaded OOC.

But before that, while in line for the inspection, rumors circulated about a new UNLIMITED (read: anything goes) class of Modern Military...that was created just days prior to the match. The armorers mentioned this new class, but I can find nothing on it in writing.I guess they don't wanna turn ANYONE away. I assume that outright 14 pound Service Rifles would classify as UNLIMITED.

Kinda defeats the whole purpose of the match, doesn't it?

Last edited by Ham_Chu; 07-26-2017 at 03:48 PM. Reason: typos
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  #18  
Old 07-26-2017, 04:26 PM
rickgman rickgman is online now
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ham_Chu View Post
Kinda defeats the whole purpose of the match, doesn't it?
Kinda my thinking too.
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  #19  
Old 07-26-2017, 04:27 PM
rickgman rickgman is online now
 
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Here's the straight skinny:

The trigger pull must weigh at a minimum of 4.5 lbs. Nothing in the rules concerning two stage or single stage.

Mark Johnson
Chief Operating Officer
Civilian Marksmanship Program
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  #20  
Old 07-26-2017, 08:32 PM
Hrfunk Hrfunk is offline
 
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Well, then last Friday is the final time I'll be battling that awful GI trigger.
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