Go Back   CMP Forums > CMP Sales > M1 Carbine
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 12-03-2009, 02:40 PM
.Steve. .Steve. is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 814
Default CMP Help: Stock Cleaning, Ammo, Mag ID & Accuracy

(C) 2015

On the CMP Web Site, there are three articles that might be of assistance to new Carbine owners on some general issues concerning stocks and hand guards, general functioning, and magazines.

"USGI Rifle Stocks and Hand Guards: Walnut and Birch
Entry Level Care and Preservation Tips and Considerations for CMP Wood"

http://www.odcmp.com/Sales/askarmore...ng_article.htm (WORKS 11/15)

"Carbine Shooting With Accuracy" (Found and below in this thread as a separate post in its entirety.) (03/16)

"M1 Carbine 30 Round Magazine Identification"


For these two, the direct links to the CMP URL location don't work. Open this page and to the center, there is box with the titles to click on.

http://thecmp.org/cmp_sales/rifle_sales/m1-carbine/

Following below in this forum sticky are five major additions to the articles as above.

The first is a group of self inspections a new owner might make of the new to that person Carbine. (This is the 29 June 08 change. The prior parts are unchanged.)

The second is additional information concerning the wood cleaning article geared mainly to the Italian Carbine wood stocks and handguards.

The third is a block of additional information concerning ammunition and reloading of the Carbine cartridge mainly about using WW296 safely and about the necessity to trim cartridge cases each reloading. (A paragraph was added about loading WW296 on 05 Sept. 08 and a small section added on 12 Dec. 08 about the why of the 1.280" trim to length.)

The fourth additional block below is a newly consolidated section concerning out of battery firing. Its purpose is to help shooters understand how it happens so they can avoid those causations. Dirty Carbines and improperly reloaded ammunition are the chief causes.

The fifth additional block below is a short item on how to calculate the height reduction of a new or too tall front sight so as to zero the slider so that when the rear sight is set say on 200 it hits at 200 with your ammo.

A sixth short item concerns keeping ejected cases out of the face of left handers and open top blouses, BDUs or otherwise. This was updated 27 July 08 with some info about extractor shapes.

A seventh item concerns powder measures and WW296 added 21 January 10.

What To Self Inspect On A New To You Carbine:

A gunsmith looking it over is always good advice, but not cheap. That professional inspection doesn't always happen for several reasons. If you take it in to the shop covered in cosmoline and filled with dry crud, it needs cleaned just to look at it and that isn't free. If you clean it yourself first, you have done most of the work and should be looking at what you are cleaning already.

The sad truth is that most gunsmiths will know less about the carbine than you do. This is especially true if you study up on it just a bit. Few gunsmiths actually specialize in used MilSurp firearms. There have not been enough in circulation in recent years for them to be a common item. The actual answer you get from most of them, is "Yep, it looks like a carbine. Nothing obvious is wrong. Did you shoot it yet? Were there any problems?"

A better gunsmith answer than that is a rarity. Look for a good one that knows more than you do.

On one level the truth would be approximately that if you don't already know what to look for in a used firearm and especially a marginally functioning one like a Carbine and don't already have new spare Carbine parts, it is unlikely just looking would identify problems in advance of shooting. Seeable defects are thankfully rare. A bit of surface wear on the finish is sometimes hard to distinguish from damage or actual metal missing type wear. Small parts damage or marginal springs are hard to identify in advance of firing.

On another level, that of interested and informed new carbine owner, logically, a wise shooter, novice to carbines or an old hand, would always look for the broken, bent, cracked, deformed, crater worn, split, broke, or what have you items that by gross observation with the Mk. I Mod. 0 eyeball can be seen. Hopefully there are none of those on your new to you Carbine.

Some things can be done and checked so that even a novice can load the deck in their favor. Other items can be done to simply get it ready to shoot for the first time.

To Do's:

1) Disassemble the carbine to your level of comfort and knowledge.

2) At a minimum, get the barrel interior, the trigger group parts, and the bolt face free of any storage cosmoline or crud, if any. Scrub the barrel interior, the trigger group parts, and the bolt face with Hoppe's #9 or some other gun cleaning solvent that you like better until they are clean of gooey or dried crud.

3) Do the same for the slide, receiver interior, operating spring and its hole, and while you are at it, the rear sight assembly.

4) Both the bolt face extractor, ejector, extractor plunger and spring, and the gas piston-nut need special attention with the Hoppe's #9. Flood both with solvent. Work the ejector in and out, work the extractor back and forth, try to slide the gas piston in and out. The ejector hole and its spring are the most likely trouble areas. Flood and press in and let the spring pop it out. That will eventually free most of them. (disassembly of either area is not advisable unless you have the tools and unless you already know how to do it and why and when not to.) Likewise make sure the firing pin is clean and free and that its tip sticks through the bolt face when forward.

4a) Very rarely is there actually a reason to take apart a carbine gas piston and nut. Some Hoppe's #9 or some such similar stuff will when flooded in and around and tooth brushed on the piston and nut will dissolve what ever crud there is that might make you think it is stuck.

The first time you shoot it, 40,000 psi will move the piston to the rear and the slide will hammer it back to the front on the return stroke. A few repetitions and there never was a reason to take it apart. Solvents are the answer in almost all cases. The goup just flows out or is blasted out.

There is too much risk in disassembling the gas system, ordinarily anyhow. Staked threads on the gas piston nut/gas cylinder often damage each other. Stressed threads which are then cross threaded and then forced make a mess. The "feel" of re-starting a gas piston nut is best learned on someone else's carbines (as in an armory trainee), not you doing your own for the first time.

Or to coin a phrase, "if it ain't broke don't fix it" (and be really sure what broke is.)

5) Lube it up. Steve's Simple Rule of Lubrication is: "If it slides, grease it. If it rotates on a pin, oil it." These used CMP carbines are easy. Look for the shinny places. Oil or grease them as appropriate. Be sure to do the firing pin retraction tang. That is the thing that hangs down from the firing pin. Do its cam surface in the receiver just under the bolt. Do the rear of the bolt hammer cam also. It is a little curvy ramp on the rear of the bolt.

5a) For beginners, lube the bolt lugs, extractor, ejector, and matching places in the receiver. Likewise do all the slide surfaces and the matching places the slide travels in. Let the hammer down gently. Look until you find the full cock notch on the hammer toward the bottom rear. It is a little right angle shelf the width of the hammer. Clean the shelf with a Q-tip and solvent and then grease it. The operating spring and its rod and the receiver spring recess are all in this group to oil or grease.

6) Move the rear sight all the way to the right. Count the clicks needed to move it all the way to the left. Divide by two. Counting carefully and writing down this number, move the rear sight toward the right by this number. It is now centered AND you know how many clicks from the left edge you are. When you go shoot it, add or subtract from this half way number any needed corrections and you will always be able to find you zero by starting at the left edge and coming right your known number.

7) Set the slider on 100 and shoot at 100 or set it on 200 and shoot it at 200. Adjust the windage and record the elevation impact data.

8) Get out your best newest shinnest magazine (15 round) and measure the distance from the bottom of the two locking lugs/nubs to the top of the feed lips at the rear of the magazine BEFORE they round down. If it is 1.50" you are good. If it is shorter than that, find a longer one. Short ones mis-feed and let the bolt override cartridges till you are nuts about it. Disassemble the magazine, clean the interior, and reassemble it essentially dry for your testing. A fast bottle brushing is perfect with a drying type moisture displacer. The long limb of the spring goes to the rear, the nub end, the primer end, when reassembling. Giving the spring a stretch of an inch or two won't hurt it, just no more.

8a) Using USGI LCxx, Korean PSDxx, or 15.0 grains WW296/110FMJRN/WWWSR will give you accurate impact data elevation wise. Aguila, S&B, and some of the others are so slow, they do not correlate to USGI spec ammo and just confuse you.

8b) Here is why you use full speed USGI spec ammo. Just below is some chronograph tests and the results. Carbine ammo varies by as much as 200fps. 10% brand to brand is a lot.

At least 10ft from muzzle, 75deg. and sunny, five shot strings:

Aguila,H=1789 L=1747 A=1769
Aguila re-test,H=1761 L=1685 A=1733
Aguila re-test,H=2021 L=1954 A=1994 (March 2016)
Georgia Arms,H=1943 L=1896 A=1924
Hansen,H=2023 L=1957 A=1987
Lake City USGI 72,H=1984 L=1952 A=1966
Lake City Re-mfg D&S,H=1981 L=1963 A=1971
Magtech,H=2005 L=1969 A=1978
Prvi Partizan,H=1880 L=1851 A=1864
Prvi Partizan re-test,H=1880 L=1836 A=1861
Rem. UMC,H=1932 L=1885 A=1918
Seller&Bellot,H=1921 L=1877 A=1907
Win. USA,H=1929 L=1883 A=1903
(copy/pasted and cleaned up for clarity)

Federal American Eagle Federal, H=1943 L=1854 A=1890 (Different tester 15 shots)

(8c) The variability of carbine ammo is why reloading is often chosen. You can shoot the same load year after year.

Even then, there can be problems. 2400 worked well as a carbine powder, but a few years ago, the formulation changed and prior loads were too zippy used with the newer powder. This is to the extent of a grain or more difference reduction out of such small loadings. I quit using it.

WW296 seemed a good choice to start over with and seems consistent. The original WW296 15.0 grain loading is just as good today as it was three decades ago. The velocity is MilSpec and the pressure well under standard operating pressure.

But it isn't just foreign ammo or powders than can be different decade to decade.

WW2 USGI ammo is loaded to full power and 65 years later LC43 cracks. Korean era ammo tends to be slower and impact differently. They are both dirty and sooty powder residue wise. Vietnam era ammo seems very similiar to WW2 ammo velocity wise, but burns cleaner and with less soot, sort of similar to WW296 loaded ammo. The Vietnam era ammo is full power.

Muzzle blast is not the best way to figure out performance. How the action sounds and how it functions is a better clue. Even better, at 200 yards, impact on the target is considerably different with differing velocities. Slow loads in a carbine predictably impact lower. A chronograph of course is the best idea as above.

9) Shoot it and see what happens. At first watch carefully that it goes into battery with the slide overrunning the bolt cam lug every-every-every time before you pull the trigger. After you know it works you can stop looking.

10) Report back if difficulties or if success.

11) I personally like to do the primed case-no bullet-no powder "out of battery test" described fully below in this Sticky to see where the new Carbine starts popping primers.



Wood Care Article Additional Information:

As the BWTs are bringing carbines to many new owners, some folks will consider cleaning the wood that is on them in addition to checking over the metal for initial firing. The first consideration should be not to damage the wood itself by the cleaning methods.

Steve's best advice remains: The less you do to your USGI walnut or birch or the equivalent wood, the happier you will be in the long run. Clean it lightly and enjoy it. Shooting them will not damage them or diminish their value to any material extent.

What are now seemingly common place Carbines will someday be a recognized collector's version, the Italian CMP returns. They will only enjoy that status if in the same condition they were returned in. The rebuilt USGI walnut or new/near new condition USGI replacement wood or Italian birch replacement stocks have the distinctive FAT XX stamp in them. Changing the wood, stripping-steaming-varnishing the wood, or sanding-grinding out the FAT XX stamps simply puts the metal back into the unknown Carbine category. The box and paper work are meaningles without the "original" Italian stock.

Besides, these carbines are used military rifles. They are actually in their normal used military rifle condition. Lightly cleaned of surface preservative and/or general grime, they are how they are supposed to be.

What is ON the wood is easily removed. Dirt, grease, and dust will come off with cheese cloth and one of the finishing oils.

What is IN the wood is part of its history and difficult to evenly and attractively remove in most cases. It is often better left in place IN the wood.

Old used military gun stocks look dark and oily because they are supposed to look like that. The deep reddish brown color is the result of 60 years of linseed/tung oil products oxidizing in the wood. It makes the stock reddish brown, dark in color, and to an extent oily. This is the patina that "grows" on/in old wood. It looks perfect for what it is, an old veteran carbine stock.

These old stocks benefit from a light cleaning with some cheesecloth and any of the linseed or tung oil products. The emphasis is on lightly. Lightly means first getting the old finish and dirt soaked in the new oil. The new oil can be pure linseed or pure tung oil or it can be BLO or BTO. The non-boiled pure types clean better as they do not dry out on you and do not shine when you are finished. After the oil has sat for a bit, wipe it off with cheesecloth leaving only a thin layer of the oil on the wood. And then stop. You are done. The finish is freshened and looks like it should on an old gun. The surface garbage is trapped in the cheesecloth and removed.

Over doing this can remove 60 years of character. Whether it is done with cheesecloth and tung oil, a water based cleaner, or a petroleum based cleaner, the character of the wood can be scrubbed away and the patina removed forever. The wood will then look like a stripped piece of walnut or birch. The patina and color are not replaceable. Carried to the extreme, the wood can be scrubbed down to the wood fibers almost to the extent as when wood is sanded with sandpaper or with ScotchBrite pads.

With the birch stocks especially, if they have a nice looking brown/red age patina, a light cleaning will leave that brown/red patina in place. Aggressive cleaning will strip that patina off and leave blond birch. Try to figure out what you want left in advance. The same "look" as it came with from honest military storage or the brunette becomes blond look?

The STAR FAT XX (year code) M2 stocks appearing on many of the carbines are in most cases birch, often with walnut hand guards. Some of the birch stocks are USGI replacements in new or about new condition. They have a pleasing brownish hue to them that is the result of finishing oils oxidizing in the wood for the last 25-60 years. It is possible to remove all the brown color and make the birch wood a flat looking faded paper tan color.

What is very difficult is to put back the pleasing brown finish. Birch is an ornery wood. None of the MinWax oil based stain sealers penetrate it worth two cents. Their color saturation is very light. The wood ends up looking flat, lighter than desireable, and like someone just did something to it. Alcohol stains done lightly often blotch. By the time even color saturation is achieved, the wood is very dark.

In most cases, it would be far better to cheese cloth and oil the birch M2 stock and stop.

The hand guards can be lightened to match the original brown stock a whole lot easier although walnut rarely actually matches birch in tones.

As to cleaning methods, the Wood Care Tips article discusses several depending on the goals of the woodworker.

Some methods are clearly inappropriate for fine wood. If it involves water, chemicals for cleaning things such as ovens, sinks, or dishwashers, or bleach, those methods should not be used.

There is little reason to agonize over which "finish", tung or linseed oil, boiled tung or boiled linseed oil, tung oil finish, Tru-Oil, or spray polyethelene (heaven forbid), if you have already wrecked the wood cleaning it.

Section 6.1 of the Wood Care Tips site puts this in some perspective:

"6.1 Stripping Off the Old Finish and Other Debris: Walnut and birch are easily worked with, but not cheaply and take some labor if you want a nice job without making a chemical mess of the wood. Any product or procedure that includes water is not appropriate for refinishing rifle stocks. The oven cleaner and dishwasher versions of cleaning stocks are not appropriate. Water, chemicals, and hot water are the death of wood fibers and any cartouche marks on the wood. Wood in many respects is a bundle of straws held together by glue. The active ingredient in Easy-Off Oven Cleaner (sodium hydroxide) attacks the natural wood glue (hemicellulose) holding the wood fibers together. Left on long enough, it will even attack the individual wood fibers. Even more problematic when unintended is that Easy-Off requires rinsing with water which raises the grain of the wood and requires sanding to remove the feathers raised. A dishwasher’s water and heat have the potential to swell wood fibers so much that the metal will not fit back in. Oven cleaners and dishwasher detergents chemically alter the wood fibers and remove natural oils in the wood. A lye like compound may be left in the wood to later leach out if damp and attack the metal placed against it."

The article is written toward helping the beginner avoid serious mistakes with several options discussed in some detail.

As a low key heads up, whatever finish product you wish to use on your USGI stock, care is needed in selecting a can of that product that is actually what you decide to use. Store clerks will sell you what they have even if they know it is not what you are asking for. Some cans of this and that are oddly labeled.

Half the problem is that we talk about the finish with any stock finish we use. Finish is also a code word for varnish.

Pure linseed oil and pure tung oil will be labeled as such.

Boiled linseed oil and boiled tung oil will be labeled as such.

XXXXXXXXXX Finish will almost always have a varnish component whether it is called Tung Oil Finish or something else Finish.

Shellac is shellac but comes in several colors. Shellac is disolved with alcohol. It is not appropriate for a base under any oil product. Oil products do not adhere to it and do not dissolve it. The shellac prevents the oil product from getting to the wood.

Tru-Oil is a polymerized oil varnish mix that makes a hard oil finish, but is not an oil.

Spar or Marine means a varnish from H that water and salt water will not disturb. Once it is on your stock, it is on. Great for an outdoor gun that will get wet a lot.

Some care in selecting the can so that it matches your choice of products will prevent a good bit of anguish.

One item to keep in mind is that MinWax stains are not so much stains as they are sanding sealers which in itself is a strange name. MinWax stains are an oil based stain. They penetrate dense woods like birch very poorly when used as a stain. They also function as a waterproofer because they contain a varnish component that seals the wood surface. Their real function beyond some coloring is to seal the wood so that varnishes and oil finishes do not penetrate unevenly or excessively into the wood. The MinWax stains provide a good base for varnish adhesion.

Once you have used a MinWax stain, linseed and tung oil products are not going to be absorbed into the wood. Nor will they sit on top of the wood well. They do not stick well. All you are doing is wiping them on and wiping them off.

MinWax stains are best for under the varnish type finishes. Alcohol stains are best for under the oil finishes since the linseed or tung product goes right through the dried alcohol stains into the wood.

Boiled Tung Oil (BTO) is not all that easy to find. Sometimes hobby shops have it or specialty woodworking shops, but finding it has been enough of a pain that I usually just hit an internet site and order what I want. Their descriptions are usually accurate. www.AltaVista.com or other search engines will turn up vendors and usage information in long lists. Try these:

www.realmilkpaint.com

http://antiquesupply.com/

http://woodworker.com/cgi-bin/search.exe

The www versus http: mean something, but I don't know what. The links each work as I just tried them.

Pure Tung Oil is usually described as 100% Pure Tung Oil.

The stuff generically referred to as Boiled Tung Oil is usually described as Tung Oil with petroleum distallates and metallic dryers. Some places call it dark tung oil.

PTO doesn't dry out after it soaks in.

BTO dries out because the mineral spirits and dryers mixed with it change its chemical form, what we call drying.

I have found myself happier and happier with a hardware store brand of Boiled Linseed Oil called "Sunnyside." It has a very pleasing tannish red color right out of the can and stores well.

Hang stocks so they don't touch anything. Insulated electric wire through a sling cut hung from a ceiling light or garage hanger in the ceiling works fine.

Used OILY RAGS: Get them outside, lay flat, let dry in the sun, and do not try to reuse them. When dry they will be rough from the oil drying anyhow. Any inside storage is unsafe, even a paint can sealed up is questionable, and burnable/meltable containers will not work to contain the heat of spontaneous combustion. Be safe. Just get rid of them immediately after use.

Safe burning works well where allowed. The oil burns quite thoroughly in the cloth.

On the issue of oils, oil finishes, wiping varnishes and so on and for how to figure out which is which since the labels are often uselessly misleading on purpose and store employees know even less, the following excerpt is quoted copy paste from the following URL:

http://www.popularwoodworking.com/features/finish2.html

"How to Tell Which (Finish) You Have

Because you can't trust the labeling, you have to know how to determine the difference between these products yourself.

Linseed oil is always labeled linseed oil, so far as I know. There are two types: raw and boiled. Raw linseed oil takes weeks to cure. Boiled linseed oil has driers added to make it cure in about a day with the excess removed. I know of no interior use for raw linseed oil.

Real tung oil has a distinct smell that clearly separates it from wiping varnish and oil/varnish blends, both of which have a varnish-like smell. Only if you are willing to go through the extra work for the increased water resistance you get in a non-building finish should you use real tung oil. Linseed oil and tung oil are always sold full strength, so if "petroleum distillate" or "mineral spirits" is listed as an ingredient, this is a clue that the finish is either wiping varnish or oil/varnish blend. To tell the difference between these two you'll have to pour some of the finish onto a non-porous surface, such as glass or Formica, and let the finish cure for a couple of days at room temperature. If it cures fairly hard and smooth, it is wiping varnish. If it wrinkles badly and is soft, it is a blend of oil and varnish. PW

What the Finishing Manufacturers Don't Tell You
Common brands of finish that are wiping varnish:
Formby's Tung Oil Finish
Zar Wipe-on Tung Oil
Val-Oil
Hope's Tung Oil Varnish
Gillespie Tung Oil
Waterlox
General Finishes' Sealacell
General Finishes' Arm R Seal
Daly's ProFin
Jasco Tung Oil

Common brands of finish that are oil/varnish blends:
Watco Danish Oil
Deft Danish Oil
Behlen Danish Oil
Maloof Finish
Behr Scandinavian Tung Oil Finish
Minwax Tung Oil Finish
Minwax Antique Oil Finish
Velvit Oil
Behlen Salad Bowl Finish
Behlen Teak Oil
Watco Teak Oil"


This URL for even more info:

http://www.woodturningvideosplus.com/oil-finish.html

There are lots of good products available, but many to most are poorly labeled. The average CMP customer may buy, clean, and re-oil one or two rifles. There is no time or desire for a long learning curve sorting out one product versus another.

In that case, the truth is out there: Visit ACE Hardware and buy their Sunnyside brand of BLO for USGI wood. It will do. Clean the wood gently, re-oil it with Sunnyside, and you are good to go.


Carbine Accuracy Article Additions Concerning Ammo:

(As to reloading in general, the above information concerning reloading is provided as a baseline reference for those individuals who choose to reload for their Carbines. Numerous companies sell reloading manuals detailing proper reloading techniques and providing tested reloading data. Before any reloading of metallic cartridges is undertaken, the shooter must consult and thoroughly understand the reloading manuals to determine the proper techniques and procedures and to establish the safety of any loading the shooter chooses to use. The handloading of rifle cartridges should be undertaken only by those who are familiar with all safety precautions and who observe conservative practices in their reloading operations. The CMP and its contributors make no recommendations concerning reloading, have no control over the manner and means of any reloading a shooter may choose to undertake, and assume no liability for the results obtained by anyone choosing to reload. Just because a loading is listed in a manual does not mean it is properly useable. Only the most current manuals should be utilized taking into account the changing nature of powders with the same/similar names and brand labels. Even some of the manufacturers sites are internally inconsistent.)

The accuracy article contains a reload of:

15.0 grains WW296
WW WSR Primers
Mixed Cases
Trim to 1.280" every reloading
110 grain FMJRN bullets (Remington Bulk being adequate)

The final version of the WW2 deployed Carbine round had a 1970-1980 muzzle velocity which gives 1900 fps at 53' from the muzzle. Quoting from the NRA's U.S. Cal. .30 Carbine book, "Because of difficulty with the 31,000psi pressure level, the pressure level for the cartridge was raised to 38,000psi and later to 40,000psi. The instrumental velocity was increased to 1900fps at 53 feet from the muzzle, with an average chamber pressure not exceeding 40,000psi. The above instrumental velocity was equivalent to a muzzle velocity of 1970fps."

Hodgdon now owns Winchester Powders. 15.0 grains WW296 is a maximum load, but the minimum WW296 load is barely under that at 14.45 grains stemming from the characteristics of the WW296 powder.

The 15.0 grains WW296 and 110FMJRN loading originates with Winchester who when they made and sold the powder called it a do not deviate from load meaning neither above or below 15.0 grains. It is a easy to reload milspec "recipe." It is not a powder to experiment with. The cartridges to which it is adapted operate at a safe pressure and going under the recommended loads causes odd sorts of things to happen between non ignition and improper burning rates. One risk of light loadings is a primer kicking the bullet out of the case forward into the barrel, the bullet stops, and then the powder lighting. This creates higher than normal pressures with what is less than a normal powder load. It is counter-intuitive.

The primers used are a function of ignition. In really cold weather, WW296 may not light right, but rarely is it shot in such cold weather that it matters. Thousands of carbine WW296 loads using WW WSR primers are regularly shot which work perfectly. The weather in which magnum primers might be helpful is weather that will find few shooters outside. No practical difference has been seen between using WSR, CCI400, and Federal Match 205M primers.

Speer has historically recommended magnum small rifle primers for WW296. Other reloading manuals do not. Speer Reloading Manual #14 at pages 426-427 lists a maximum load of WW296 as 15.0 grains using a CCI450 magnum primer and IMI cases with a velocity of 1981fps. A footnote states "CCI No. 41 primer may be sustituted for CCI450." Different cases and magnum primers give the same velocity as the Winchester WW296/WSR formula.

The Hodgdon site says that WW296 loadings should not be reduced more than 3% (three percent). That means the minimum loading for the Carbine using WW296/110 grain FMJRN bullets is 14.55 grains. This information is found at:

http://data.hodgdon.com/main_menu.asp

"USE THIS DATA WITH HODGDONŽ, IMRŽ AND WINCHESTERŽ BRAND POWDERS ONLY.


WW296 = H-110

Brian Pearce, Handloader Magazine, October-November 2009, @ page 29:

"Most handloaders have known that Winchester Ammunition and Hodgdon offer several propellants that are similiar but probably didn't know that some are exactly the same. Let me explain. During the years that Winchester marketed its own powders to handloaders, company officials didn't feel it would be beneficial to advertise them as being the same powder as a competitor. That has now changed, as Hodgdon is marketing Winchester propellants as well as its own.

"The following powders come out of the same spout, and there is absolutely no difference. The point being that if you cannot find a given powder, the same product may be available under a different name, and load data is 100 percent interchangable. Here is a list of the powders that are the same:

Hodgdon Winchester

H-110.......same as...........296

HP-38.......same as...........231

HS-6........same as...........540 (now discontinued)

H-414.......same as...........760

*" end quote

For all brands of powders use only the components shown. If the reloader makes any changes in components or gets new lot numbers, he should begin again with the starting loads and work up to maximum cautiously.

For those loads listed where a starting load is not shown, start 10% below the suggested maximum load and then approach maximums carefully, watching for any sign of pressure (difficult extraction, cratered and flattened or blown primers, and unusual recoil). H110 and Winchester 296 loads should not be reduced more than 3%.

Reduce H110 and Winchester 296 loads 3% and work up from there. H110 and Winchester 296 if reduced too much will cause inconsistent ignition. In some cases it will lodge a bullet in the barrel, causing a hazardous situation (Barrel Obstruction). This may cause severe personal injury or death to users or bystanders. DO NOT REDUCE H110 LOADS BY MORE THAN 3%.

DO NOT EXCEED THE LOADS DISPLAYED ON THE SITE OR IN ANY HODGDONŽ, IMRŽ OR WINCHESTERŽ RELOADERS GUIDE."

This information genrerated a good bit of prior discussion. The Hodgdon site is clear enough that reducing WW296 loads is problematic. Hodgdon now makes and markets WW powders even though WW retains ownership of the name. The WW reloading data has been collapsed into the Hodgdon site. Old WW info and manuals had similiar references that reducing WW296 charges should be avoided.

To reinforce the prior knowledge of how to load the Carbine with WW296, William C. Davis, an NRA Dope Bag editor, wrote the following at page 64 of the American Rifleman for June 1979, "...Emphasizes the manufacturer's warning about the use of WW296 powder. Though it is an excellent powder for its specifically intended purposes, it is not a flexible powder, and it should not be loaded except in strict accordance with the manufacturer's recommendations. Winchester-Western recommends WW296 only in specific loads for the .357, .41 and .44 Magnum handgun cartridges, the .30 Carbine, and .410-bore shot-shells. The loads listed should be neither increased nor decreased, but used exactly as specificied. That warning is clear in the Winchester-Western Ball Powder Loading Data booklet, but some handloaders have not taken it seriously. They certainly should..." The WW296 loading infomation was very clear at the time. Use 15.0 grains for the .30 Carbine.

The NRA did recommend the 15.0 grains WW296 110 grain FMJRN load as the military equivalent duplication loading. Every source ever seen has the load at 36,000 for its pressure against a 40,000 normal operating limit. Speer is the only manual to recommend magnum primers. In a recent NRA test article, this was noted and no reason was known for the recommendation beyond super cold weather. Interestingly, the magnum primer load was slower than the normal primer load when WW296 was used.

The 15.0 grain WW296 110 FMJRN loading at 36,000psi is 10% under the WW2 standard 40,000psi using a specially designed powder that is better than anything available in 1941-2. With the 18" barreled carbine, the NRA Carbine Booklet gives the following loading:

110 Speer FLN HP
15.0 grains WW296
1980fps
36,000 psi
Win case
Win WSR primer
barrel 18"
Source Winchester


WW296 and Powder Measures

WW296 is a very fine grain ball powder. It seems to flow quite well in most powder measures. Seems is the operative idea. WW296 and H110 cannot safely be reduced beyond 3% at most according to the manufacturer. Before trusting any measure to charge a case directly, it should be tested against a scale extensively.

Redding BR-30 (range 10-50 grains) and Redding 10X Competition (range 1-25 grains) meter WW296 with an observed 0.1 +/- grain variation. The 10X is probably the most accurate small charge measure made.

A RCBS Little Dandy using rotor #16 with about 10 drops of dried nylon fingernail polish in the bottom of the drilled fixed cavity to reduce the capacity is equally as accurate throwing charges just under 15.0 grains. All three of these systems use the idea of a round tube filled and emptied by rotation.

A Lyman #55, grey color, turned out to be useless for WW296. The Lyman #55 system uses sliders that move left and right creating a square shouldered hole in a cylinder. The sliders can be lined up for a straight edge or offset slightly making a stepped cavity. They should never be adjusted so that the top slider partially covers over the larger slider hole underneath.

Careful testing has observed that using WW296 with a Lyman #55 creates a safety problem. The measure throws short charges. WW296 cannot safely be reduced beyond 3%. The error range of the Lyman #55 approaches 20% short charges.

A Lyman #55 was set up very carefully to throw 14.5 grains of WW296 measuring individual charges. Three sets of 10 charges weighing 145.3, .4, and .3 grains were thrown. All seemed to work well. Loading cases, short charges were noticed. Weighing everyone, the pattern ran with charges fairly consistently near 14.5, but sometimes like this: 14.5, 14.0, 14.2, 14.5, 14.0, 12.5.

Every effort was made to be consistent. The measure does not throw WW296 consistently. With the Lyman #55, it was not a full versus empty hopper problem, but two adjacent charges being very different.

It is clearly impossible for the charge to increase past 14.5. The measure is capable of short charging. A guess is it bridges somewhere in the hopper and rotor interface and does not fill the rotor cavity completely. It seems to either fill it fairly well, or lose 3 grains somehow. A Lyman #55 Powder measure should not be used for any fine grain powder like WW296 or H110.

Based on past experience, having one orange one and one grey one, they would not hold a consistent charge over a period of time. The sliders always seemed to be walking no matter how tight the thumbscrews were set.

The Redding BR series never change unless you change them. They are consistent with WW296 within 0.1 +/- grain in a 15.0 charge for an average. They can also be reset fairly easily with the micrometer system. The Lymans use three slides and there is no hope of resetting them without starting all over again. 21 Jan 10


The length of most factory new ammo is 1.280". That is the most desirable length for trimming reloads to. It is also the common answer in reloading manuals.

There is a reason for this. Every bit beyond that factory new length is just a bit closer to keeping a bolt from running all the way forward and preventing locking up in complete battery. The closer the cases are to 1.280", the easier the Carbine mechanism goes forward and locks the bolt with the slide overriding it. Any longer length is less desirable. Trim every reloading.

There is often some confusion over when to measure a case. Case length after being fired is not of particular interest. What is of interest is the case length of the loaded ammo before being fired. Carbine cases shorten, lengthen, and stay the same almost at seeming random when fired even in the same shooting session.

A lot of lengthening comes from the full length resizing and mouth expanding process. The time to measure the cases is after full length resizing and after they have been expanded to allow bullet seating. This is when a normal 0.308” trimmer pilot will enter the case mouth on the trimmer cutter system. Trim them at that time to 1.280" and they will stay that length as the bullet is seated and then chambered. After trimming they should be LIGHTLY de-burred inside and out. Just enough to make square corners when the burrs are gone.

[B](12 Dec. 08 Trimming) [/B]

A lot of questions have been asked about how a trim to length of 1.280" originated. The Carbine headspaces off the case mouth because there is no other part of the case that could engage anything in the chamber. There is no rim at the primer end and there is no shoulder where a bottle neck case steps down. So by default, the case mouth is the forward point for headspacing.

At to 1.278" versus 1.280" versus 1.282" versus 1.285" versus 1.290", some lengths are critical, some may not be.

1.290" This is the maximum case length that is expected to fit without interferrence when chambering. In a Carbine, the mechanism has very little inertia and the spring is not strong. Trying to close it up tight is an invition to failures to go into battery. It matters because a Carbine drops the hammer whether the bolt is not locked, half locked, or fully in battery.

1.285" This is normally the LONGEST recommended trim to case length for reloaded ammo. It leaves a little space, but not much.

1.280" This is the SHORTEST recommended trim to case length for reloaded ammo. It leaves the largest space needed for safe and effortless chambering, but no excess.

1.280" is also the length of many factory rounds and seems a good length to go back to when reloading carbine ammo.

UNDER 1.280" i.e., 1.279", 1.278" and so on. Does shortness matter? Yes. Is it critical? Maybe. Maybe not. There is a length in each Carbine where the case mouth hits the chamber lip and the case stops. The extractor/bolt/slide combination continues forward and overrides the rim with the extractor. At some point shortness of the case wastes the energy of the moving parts and the extractor does not jump over the rim. Too much shortness is not good in this sense.

Even if the extractor makes it over the rim of a short case, the firing pin only sticks out so far. If the firing pin hits the primer and pushes the case forward until it hits the chamber lip, then the excess space is using up firing pin energy and diminishing ignition reliability. At some point, the firing pin is not long enough to make it go bang.

Experience indicates that as long as a case is long enough to pop under the extractor, it will fire and eject because the extractor holds on to it. At some point, a short case is too short. It is better not to live at the extreme end of tolerances however. Happiness and dependability lie in the middle. Any case shorter than 1.280" is disposed of just as any case longer than the 1.280-1.282" range is trimmed. There is a reason for this.

1.280-1.282" has proven to be the length where easy chambering occurs without interferrence even when dirty with several hundred rounds fired with WW296 in a session. It is also the length that is long enough for reliable extractor and firing pin function. Since it mirrors factory new length, it seems good.

Length considerations did not just fall from the sky. The are the practical result of a lot of shooting to say nothing of the case specs and reloading manual recommendations.


Why Trim Carbine Cases?

The question of why trim carbine cases sometimes arises among shooters who reload. It usually goes like: this is just the first reloading, it doesn’t matter; they don’t stretch that much, gee, no, I don’t own a micrometer; or, oh, they are good (substitute your brand) cases that don’t stretch.

I’d be the first to agree trimming is a lot of bother. But as to necessity, it is necessary.

A friend recently gave me a .30 cal green can of once fired range pickup .30 Carbine brass that totaled about 900 cases. They had clearly been fired from 10 or more unknown carbines. They were headstamped WW, RA4, CBC, LC67-72, PS 76, PSD XX, S&B, RA43-53, PMC, PA53, WRA53, LC54, RP, and a couple dozen LC52. The LC52 had 3 different fonts all of which I pitched since I don’t know one Chinese corrosive from Lake City for sure. All in all, factory once fired brass of various makes.

Knowing that factory ammo hovers around 1.280”, I measured a random batch of the fired cases. Fired, they both seemed to shorten and to lengthen ranging from 1.275” to 1.285” in the can. Didn’t seem too bad for length so I decided to experiment.

1) All cases were lubricated and full length resized with a carbide die set. Measuring some as I went along, the FLR process would take a case of 1.275” and make it into 1.292” length in one check. Another case check had a 1.285” case turn into a 1.294” case by FLR. Way long.

2) All cases were mouth expanded just enough to start a Remington FMJRN 110 bullet and primed in the process. EVERY single case was eyeballed to make sure the primers were even or under the head. This bullet ready case length is what matters after FLR, expanding, and priming.

3) At this point, the non-trimmers would say the cases are ready for powder and a bullet.

4) I pulled out and measured the length of random 20 cases. They measured:

1.286”
1.289
1.290
1.290
1.290
1.291
1.291
1.291
1.291
1.291
1.292
1.292
1.292
1.293
1.293
1.293
1.295
1.297
1.301
1.301”

75% of the cases exceeded the maximum allowable case length of 1.290”. 100% exceeded the sometimes given trim to length of 1.285”. 100% exceeded the factory range of 1.280” for new ammo. 100% exceeded my 1.280-1.282” suggestion to match factory ammo.

Three of the 20 would not have fit into any chamber within the normal headspace range. The hammer would have dropped on an unlocked bolt on those. Two of them were a jam fit into a field reject chamber.

So that’s why I suggest trimming every reloading, even new cases and even the special favorites some folks use.



Old Cases Shortening

Case length in the carbine case matters for reasons of headspace, ignition, and extraction. Too long causes bolt closing problems and too short increases headspace, makes it hard for the firing pin to reach the primer, and in the extreme makes it hard for the extractor to pop over the case rim. Using a batch of old many times reloaded cases, an oddity was observed. The cases had been full length resized, expanded, and then trimmed each reloading to be in the 1.280-1.282” range. They were never cut short.

With this batch of cases, the fired cases measured in the 1.270” area. Full length resizing them did not make them much longer. The FLR and expanded cases hovered in the 1.278”area which is a little short. They were loaded and fired without problems. Much shorter than this area would have resulted in the case being too short to be easily forced under the extractor. It was also observed that the brass was stiff and did not spring back after being fired, work hardening, as it were, from repeated reloadings. 21 Jan 10



(6 September 07) NEW BRASS:

There has been some confusion about trimming "new" Carbine cases. Most new cases come with an instruction to trim them to length or to full length resize them and then trim them to length. This is not an accident and not just a manufacturer trying to lawyer proof their product. Keep in mind these cases have not been through an ammunition manufacturers loading dies or quality control process. They are simply new unfired cases.

New cases are sometimes out of round, dented, too long, or have case mouths long on one side and shorter on the other side. The best practices recommendation is to full length resize them, case mouth expand them, and then trim them to length as you would any other fired case. This is simply to increase your level of assurance that the loaded case will enter your chamber entirely and without effort allowing the bolt to rotate locked and the slide to overrun it.

(6 September 07) FIRED ROUND BUT NO RELOADING CYCLE:

As a safety warning, there is an oddity of Carbine functioning that bears a small bit of discussion. There are times when a Carbine fires and the end product is a completely closed bolt on the fired cartridge case. The shooter perceives it as a failure of the gas system to thrust the gas piston/slide/bolt to the rear or as a failure to extract and/or to eject. The remedies are often thought of in terms of a low power low pressure cartridge or of bolt face component failure. In most cases with the Carbine, neither is the problem.

In this specific failure to cycle mode, begin with a cartridge firing normally. The gas pressure forces the gas piston/slide/bolt to the rear, the operating spring forces the slide/bolt to the front, a new cartridge is picked up out of the magazine, the cartridge enters the chamber, the slide/bolt go forward, the bolt partially turns toward lockup, and things stop at that point lets say 1/2 or 2/3 bolt rotated.

At this point, the slide has not overrun the bolt extension in the slide cam. At this point, the slide has not run forward to push the gas piston back to the front. However, the shooter does not often notice this. Unaware, the shooter pulls the trigger again. Either from wear/tolerance design in the hammer, bolt rear cuts, receiver firing pin retraction cam, or firing pin itself, many Carbines will fire in this partially locked condition. Sometimes the hammer forces the bolt to rotate towards locking fully and sometimes not. In either event, the cartridge firing is faster than the bolt turning and the slide running forward and the gas piston being pushed to the front.

When the gas pressure hits the gas port and then the gas piston, the gas piston is already fully to the rear and there is no motion imparted to the gas piston and thus no motion to the slide. Quite often, after the cartridge has fired, the slide goes forward locking the bolt down on the fired case. This is what the shooter interprets as a low pressure round or a failure to extract/eject. It is not.

The point here is that any Carbine firing and leaving a case in the chamber with the bolt locked and the slide forward should be interpreted as the end product of a partially out of battery firing. The usual suspects in partial lockup situations are overly long cartridges, dented cases, brass/dirt on the bolt face or in the chamber especially at the shoulder/throat milling, or primers that are not seated fully. All these items interfere with the bolt going forward and jam the bolt before it can fully rotate. The partially locked bolt is "usually" or "often" or "most times" locked "enough" that the cartridge pressure is contained, but it is potentially a very bad situation.

Until another exact cause is identified, any of these situations should be treated as the end product of a partially out of battery firing.

One frequent "quick fix" type solution often volunteered is the "hi-speed" operating spring. This is simply a stiffer spring that when fully compressed closes the action with more zip. This tends to mask the real problems and create new ones. The stiffer spring resists opening the action all the way creating feeding and ejection problems. The action may not open all the way or it may open slower affecting ejection.

If the action is ever fully opened, the stiffer spring will help close the action, but it is not a cure for the original problem. It is better to use new condition USGI springs for the correct balance of resistence to opening and closure power. The design is intended to open, stop moving when fully to the rear, and then move to the front. The original USGI spring specs do this in the proper manner.

In the normal extraction/ejection problems, the bolt is pushed to the rear, picks up a new cartridge out of the magazine, and somewhere in the process does not extract or eject the old fired case. Or there is a classic stovepipe with a new cartridge picked up. Or the ammo is actually so low powered, the action never cycles (rare) even partially.

But the bolt and slide just sitting there fully locked up with a fired case in the chamber should be a RED FLAG. Stop shooting until you know why it is happening.

(As to reloading in general, the above information concerning reloading is provided as a baseline reference for those individuals who choose to reload for their Carbines. Numerous companies sell reloading manuals detailing proper reloading techniques and providing tested reloading data. Before any reloading of metallic cartridges is undertaken, the shooter must consult and thoroughly understand the reloading manuals to determine the proper techniques and procedures and to establish the safety of any loading the shooter chooses to use. The handloading of rifle cartridges should be undertaken only by those who are familiar with all safety precautions and who observe conservative practices in their reloading operations. The CMP and its contributors make no recommendations concerning reloading, have no control over the manner and means of any reloading a shooter may choose to undertake, and assume no liability for the results obtained by anyone choosing to reload. Just because a loading is listed in a manual does not mean it is properly useable. Only the most current manuals should be utilized taking into account the changing nature of powders with the same/similar names and brand labels. Even some of the manufacturers sites are internally inconsistent.)

15 September 2007 Carbine Out of Battery Firing Issues

The issue of Universal Carbine and USGI Carbine out of battery firing is raised from time to time. The responses are often a disjointed effort to address an inquiry by a specific shooter. Some of my own efforts have wandered. This article has been written, with a bit more organization, to discuss out of battery firing, its causes, and prevention. Some information on how to safety check either a Universal Firearms commercial copy or a genuine USGI Carbine is provided.


In Battery

Complete "battery" consists of the bolt being fully forward, the bolt being fully rotated clockwise, and the slide run all the way forward to secure the bolt in its fully rotated position.

The proper Carbine operating cycle can be interrupted at various points. The bolt can be fully forward, but not rotated. The bolt can be partially rotated with the locking surfaces partially engaged. The bolt can be fully rotated with the locking surfaces fully engaged, but the slide does not overrun the bolt lug. Battery is simply the end product of the proper operating cycle.


Out of Battery Problems

Many late model or poorly made Universal Firearms brand commercially made Carbines, the third generation especially, can fire with the bolt fully forward, but not rotated. This occurs most frequently with the Universals having a stamped slide, two operating springs, few USGI parts, and a simple window cut into the slide serving as a cam track.

The writer has never examined a USGI Carbine that would fire with the bolt fully forward, but not rotated at all.

Firing with the bolt completely unlocked is obviously bad. Firing with the operating system in battery is obviously good. Firing with the bolt partially locked is problematic and should be avoided.

The writer has checked any number of USGI Carbines in new, near new, new from rebuild, slightly used, and moderately used condition. There were no junkers or worn out ones in this group. The writer has found that seemingly new or new from rebuild USGI Carbines start to set off the primers in the tests below in the vicinity of 1/2 to 2/3 rotation towards fully rotated with only partial engagement of the locking surfaces. At this time the slide is still a half inch to the rear and the bolt lug that rides in the slide cam is NOT locked down by the slide.

This is normal for the USGI design, but still undesirable. Firing at this point with a real cartridge is problematic because while the right lug half engaged will "probably" hold, there is nothing much but metal friction under pressure keeping the lugs from rotating to unlock. Preventing rotation is the job of the slide fully forward. The slide trying to go forward over a partially locked bolt lug does help prevent the bolt from unlocking.

Doing proper maintenance and loading proper ammunition goes a long way to insuring the mechanism will not stop out of battery. Once a USGI Carbine bolt is fully forward chambering a case, only a dirt or an ammunition problem prevents it from going into battery in most cases. Both are under the control of the shooter.

Problems with Universal Carbines occur often enough to be considered serious.

Problems with USGI Carbines occur infrequently, but avoiding any problems is a better idea.

If you have ever had a Carbine fire with normal power and recoil and your bullet hit the target, BUT the fired case is still in the chamber fully locked, this is exactly what happened. The Carbine fired with the bolt forward and partly locked. The slide on the other hand was held a half inch to the rear and the gas piston could not reach the slide to kick the slide back. During recoil, the slide went the rest of the way forward. The hammer is not cocked, the case is not ejected, and the bolt never moves. That is your first notice that something is wrong. Consider it a RED FLAG.

If you have ever had a Carbine go click as the hammer falls and then you notice that the bolt is fully forward, but not rotated, again, take this as a warning to remedy the problem before Murphy's Law takes over. Mr. Murphy is a proponent of the belief that if a bad thing can happen, it will, and at the most disadvantageous time.

If you pull the trigger and get a click-clack sound with a lightly dented, but unfired primer, this is the same situation. The energy of the hammer (click) has turned the bolt and let the slide go forward (clack).


USGI Carbines

A USGI Carbine has two major safety features. There is the hammer face/rear of the bolt cam geometry that keeps the hammer from touching the firing pin unless the bolt is partly to mostly rotated into full lockup. There is a firing pin tang retraction cam cut in the bottom of the receiver that holds the firing pin tang back. If the hammer hits the firing pin before full lockup, the firing pin cannot go forward because the tang is against the cam cut into the receiver bottom. Together, in a USGI Carbine, these features prevent out of battery fire, at least by design theory.

As a practical matter, most USGI Carbines will fire anywhere beyond 1/2 to 2/3 locked up. This is "usually" "enough" to keep them shut. The thrust is to the rear, the right lug is large, and there is no mechanical action to turn the bolt since the force is all directly to the rear. This ability to fire partially locked is not desirable, but is inherent in the design. The disconnector interrupts trigger function, but is in no way linked to the bolt or slide position.

If a USGI Carbine fails to completely go into battery, the geometry of the USGI bolt and hammer encourages further rotation because of the incline on the rear of the bolt that cocks the hammer going the other way. The hammer helps the bolt rotate. To an extent, the hammer enters the rear of the bolt and helps keep it from rotating to unlock by the operation of the same cam.

An unrotated USGI carbine bolt should and usually just goes click if the trigger is pulled. As the bolt is rotated farther, but not all the way, the hammer helps it rotate even farther. If the bolt rotates enough to fire, there is still no way the slide can move forward to lock the bolt lug down. Ignition is way faster than the spring pushing the slide the last half inch. Inertia, friction, and the hammer/bolt geometry prevent most unlockings. Most.


Universal Firearms Carbines

The most serious issue here is that some Universals allow a hammer strike to ignite a primer any time after the bolt is fully forward, but not one bit rotated towards locked. There is no bolt/hammer cam to help the bolt close on some Universals. If a Universal fires unlocked, the bolt lug comes right back through the slide window breaking it. Delayed blow back is not advisable at 40,000psi.

The writer had that personal experience in 1970 with a brand new Universal Carbine. It is very scary when 40,000 psi comes unglued in your face. I have always been thankful for being very near sighted. I HAD to wear some sort of glasses my whole life. Living on a farm and being active, I had a hardened form of safety glass lenses. The face of the lenses were ruined, there were surface craters caused by impact of powder grains burning and pieces of molten brass. My eyes were unhurt. The joy of getting the brass picked out of my forehead will go unmentioned.

Universal rebuilt the Carbine for free and told the writer what had happened. The writer tested it with primed cases and realized it would still fire anytime the bolt was all the way forward. Once was enough. The carbine was taken to the shop, placed on an anvil minus the stock, and a 12# sledgehammer was applied until it was forever scrap.

The problem with Universal Carbines is not that they won't usually work and not that they won't usually fire. They usually do work and usually do fire. The actual problem is that a number of them FIRE UNLOCKED. You then have 40,000 PSI unleashed in your face. Not good.

The later you go into Universal production and including probably all the latest ones with two operating springs and a stamped slide with a cam window cut into it, the machining got sloppier and sloppier and the design and manufacturing fell apart safety wise. Universal did away with the USGI design receiver bridge firing pin retraction cam surfaces, the USGI design firing pin retraction tang, and eventually the USGI design hammer camming surfaces on the rear of the bolt that also protect the firing pin from the hammer. They went to a firing pin with no retraction tang.

The mechanism for this out of battery firing is two fold.

(1) In a Universal, the firing pin retraction surface cam cut into the bottom of the receiver under the bolt is either non-existent in some cases or mis-machined in other cases. In either event, it does not properly engage the tang on the firing pin even on the bolts with a tang on the firing pin. The tang is the part that sticks down below the bolt. Without the firing pin retraction surface cam cut being properly machined, the firing pin is free to go forward and strike a primer BEFORE the bolt is rotated to full locked position. It may allow the primer to be struck when the bolt is fully forward, but completely unlocked. It may allow the primer to be struck with the bolt fully forward and only partly locked. Or some variation of less than full rotational locking.

(2) The second Universal problem is the bolt surfaces cut into the rear of the bolt as they match the hammer surfaces. In a USGI Carbine, the bolt and hammer notches and cuts and bumps only align to allow the hammer to strike the firing pin when the bolt is between partly and mostly locked.

In Universals, the bolt may be totally lacking in the machine cuts, they may be mis-cut, or the hammer may not match. The combination allows the hammer to strike the firing pin before partly to mostly rotated lockup occurs.

The combination of these defects in a Universal has allowed any number of them to fire out of battery. The bolt lug comes straight back through the rear of the metal window in slide cam and all H breaks loose in your face. Without shooting glasses on, you will not see again.

Additionally, in many cases it was not only the safety design that fell apart, but the carbine itself, quite literally. A lot of the two part slides broke where the slide body and the handle were welded together. Not a sign of high quality. The trigger housings were made of some kind of zinc based metal, and they quite often broke, in one way or another.


Simple Safety Check

A simple test is to have some primed cases with no powder and no bullet. Empty primed cases. Again, no powder, no bullet. Simply primed cases.

Chamber the primed case. Hold the slide back so the bolt is fully forward, but not rotated, simulating a long round or a jam from whatever reason. Drop the hammer. If the primer fires, you have the answer. Very bad.

Again, chamber a new primed case and hold the slide so that the bolt is only turned to lock say a 1/4 of the way. Drop the hammer. If the primer pops, you again have the answer. Repeat this at say, 1/3 of the way, 1/2 of the way, 2/3 of the way, 3/4 of the way.

At some point, the primed case will pop the primer as you drop the hammer. In theory, the primer should only fire when the bolt is fully rotated and locked in battery. Any primer popping before that would do the same with a live round. As a practical matter, we know it will fire the primer before that. How much before is what we are trying to determine by the testing. The average USGI Carbine can be expected to fire some time after the bolt is about 1/2 rotated. What the test result means to a shooter, the writer cannot express an opinion about.

And be careful with the muzzle because the burning aluminum from a fired primer ejected from the muzzle will scorch a wood floor or a carpet.

The tests should be done with the muzzle up and with the muzzle down so that the firing pin is in both positions.

Do not reuse the primed cases while testing. The primers frequently dent long before they fire. An accumulation of dentings, may let them fire where they would not have fired if it was the first firing pin strike.

The rear bolt and hammer face features of a USGI made carbine are such that if the bolt is slightly short of 100% locked, then the energy of the hammer rotates the bolt toward 100% lockup. Then the hammer hits the firing pin with whatever energy is left usually firing the round. When this test is used on a USGI carbine, the slide has to be held quite firmly to prevent the bolt's rotation when testing. If the tester lets the slide move and the bolt rotate, it makes a false impression.


Symptoms to Watch For

A common symptom of out of battery problems are the "click" upon pulling the trigger and finding a chambered cartridge and the bolt unlocked or partially locked.

In a Universal Carbine, the rear of the slide cam window breaking out is a guaranteed sign of partial out of battery firing.

Light firing pin strikes followed by a lot of extra noise is often a Carbine out of battery. The hammer falls, turns the bolt and dents the primer, the slide runs forward, but the primer does not fire. In a simple weak hammer fall, there is a click. But if the slide is not forward until the hammer falls, there is a click-clack as the hammer falls and the slide moves.

The genuine RED FLAG is the cartridge firing and a failure to cycle with the fired case fully locked in the chamber.

As a safety warning, there is an oddity of Carbine functioning that bears a small bit of discussion. There are times when a Carbine fires and the end product is a completely closed bolt on the fired cartridge case. The shooter perceives it as a failure of the gas system to thrust the gas piston/slide/bolt to the rear or as a failure to extract and/or to eject. The remedies are often thought of in terms of a low power low pressure cartridge or of bolt face component failure. In most cases with the Carbine, neither is the problem.

In this specific failure to cycle mode, begin with a cartridge firing normally. The gas pressure forces the gas piston/slide/bolt to the rear, the operating spring forces the slide/bolt to the front, a new cartridge is picked up out of the magazine, the cartridge enters the chamber, the slide/bolt go forward, the bolt partially turns toward lockup, and things stop at that point lets say 1/2 or 2/3 bolt rotated.

At this point, the slide has not overrun the bolt extension in the slide cam. At this point, the slide has not run forward to push the gas piston back to the front. The gas piston is to the rear. However, the shooter does not often notice this. Unaware, the shooter pulls the trigger again. Either from wear/tolerance design in the hammer, bolt rear cuts, receiver firing pin retraction cam, or firing pin itself, many Carbines will fire in this partially locked condition. Sometimes the hammer forces the bolt to rotate towards locking fully and sometimes not. In either event, the cartridge firing is faster than the bolt turning and the slide running forward and the gas piston being pushed to the front.

When the gas pressure hits the gas port and then the gas piston, the gas piston is already fully to the rear and there is no motion imparted to the gas piston and thus no motion to the slide. Quite often, after the cartridge has fired, the slide goes forward locking the bolt down on the fired case hiding the real cause. This is what the shooter interprets as a low pressure round or a failure to extract/eject. It is not.

The point here is that any Carbine firing and leaving a case in the chamber with the bolt locked and the slide forward should be interpreted as the end product of a partially out of battery firing. The usual suspects in partial lockup situations are overly long cartridges, dented cases, brass/dirt on the bolt face or in the chamber especially at the shoulder/throat milling, or primers that are not seated fully. All these items interfere with the bolt going forward and jam the bolt before it can fully rotate. The partially locked bolt is "usually" or "often" or "most times" locked "enough" that the cartridge pressure is contained, but it is potentially a very bad situation.

Until another exact cause is identified, any of these situations should be treated as the end product of a partially out of battery firing.

One frequent "quick fix" type solution often volunteered is the "hi-speed" operating spring. This is simply a stiffer spring that when fully compressed closes the action with more zip. This tends to mask the real problems and create new ones. The stiffer spring resists opening the action all the way creating feeding and ejection problems. The action may not open all the way or it may open slower affecting ejection by not being open long enough.

If the action is ever fully opened, the stiffer spring will help close the action, but it is not a cure for the original problem. It is better to use new condition USGI springs for the correct balance of resistance to opening and closure power. The design is intended to open, stop moving when fully to the rear, and then move to the front. The original USGI spring specs do this in the proper manner.

In the normal extraction/ejection problems, the bolt is pushed to the rear, picks up a new cartridge out of the magazine, and somewhere in the process does not extract or eject the old fired case. Or there is a classic stovepipe with a new cartridge picked up. Or the ammo is actually so low powered, the action never cycles (rare) even partially.

But when the bolt and slide are just sitting there fully locked up with a fired case in the chamber, it should be a RED FLAG. Stop shooting until you know why it is happening.


Causes and the Inherent Solutions

Anything that mechanically hinders the Carbine's operating mechanism from going into battery should be avoided.

A failure of the Carbine to terminate its operating cycle in battery is usually caused by problems with the ammunition or with dirt and crud. Dirty chambers, brass shavings at the chamber lip or in the bolt face, or reloading dirty chipped dented brass causes problems.

New Carbine ammunition is usually loaded in cases near an overall length of 1.280". A reloaded cartridge case overall length exceeding 1.280" is an invitation to problems. New brass needs to be full length resized and trimmed before loading. That is the most desirable length for trimming reloads to. It is also the common answer in reloading manuals.

There is a reason for this. Every bit beyond that factory new length is just a bit closer to keeping a bolt from running all the way forward and preventing locking up in complete battery. The closer the cases are to 1.280", the easier the Carbine mechanism goes forward and locks the bolt with the slide overriding it. Any longer length is less desirable. Trim every reloading.

These items are discussed at length in other articles about reloading for the Carbine.

Stock wood can interfering with the slide's movement causes problems.

Shooting a Carbine dry of proper lubrication is in this category. If it rotates on a pin, oil it. If it slides, grease it. The lube will stay put that way and not spray your shooting glasses.

If the particular Carbine is one of the worst designed later Universals, there is a pin holding the plug in front of the gas piston that can be driven out, the plug removed, and then the plug inverted 180 degrees. The gas passage is thus blocked. This disables the semi-automatic functioning. The carbine can be used as a straight pull bolt action. With the slide manually operated and pushed forward over the bolt lug, the Universal is no worse than any other carbine firing in battery. Pull to rear, push to front, trap the bolt lug down with the slide.



Conclusion

Shooting a late Universal two spring stamped slide Carbine semi-automatically raises the simple question of why are you doing it? The writer would suggest that risking yourself or others with a known problem is unwise.

As to USGI Carbines, the foregoing is simply a bit of knowledge, some info on how to check a Carbine if you have a concern, and things to do to stack the deck in the direction of safe operation to the limits of the inherent design. By understanding the nature of potential problems, they can be prevented from occuring.


Front Sight Reduction To Zero The Rear Sight Slider

The question frequently arises along the lines of: "My carbine shoots too low on its sight settings. I want to cut a gnat's whisker off my carbine front sight to make it shoot to zero at 200 yards set on the 200 mark instead of the 300. How do I do it?"

There are very accurate ways to calculate and measure the front sight height reduction/cuttage needed. Setting up the calculator is simple. All you have to do is construct the formula and solve it. It amounts too little more than turning around the “How much do I have to raise my rear sight” equation.


The bullet movement on the target paper desired in inches
___________________

Goes over the range in inches


(That would be 7200 inches at 200 yards and 3600 inches at 100 yards.)

After making those two entries, they equal =


The unknown front sight cuttage needed
______________________

over the sight radius (being 21.5" with a carbine set on 200)


Solve the equation and you have the exact amount to cut off.


Easier yet is knowing that for each 0.01" or each 1/100"

the change is:

At 200 yards, 0.01" = 3.35" of impact change on the target.

At 100 yards, 0.01" = 1.67" of impact change on the target.

If you divide those inches of change into the amount of change needed, you know how many 0.01” or 1/100” to reduce the front sight height by. (Oh, well, I guess I also told you the easy way to do it.)


How to measure and shorten the front sight is fairly simple. Take a solid square end flat sliver of really hard wood. Stand it up against the vertical face of the front sight. Press it against the sight and tip the top to the muzzle. That should leave a distinct impression in the wood showing the top of the face of the front sight. Repeat that wood impression in 8 or 10 slivers. Trust me, you will need them as you check repeatedly. (Packages of frozen popsicle sticks are perfect.)

File the front sight down keeping it level and tapered to the front. This is best done by taking a 3x5" index card, cutting to the center, cutting out a barrel size circle, putting the cutout on the barrel by the band, and then looking at the front sight from the muzzle end against the white card. Most fellows would unload the carbine first, lock the action open, and perhaps put a chamber flag into the chamber before looking down the muzzle line. Positioning in a cleaning vise so the carbine holds still helps. Use Magic Marker frequently to show where you are cutting. Focus on the top of the post for levelness. Lightly touch the sides of the sight and the vertical face to eliminate burrs before looking.

Reuse (make a second impression) a wood sliver and note the change in the impression line made. You will quickly see two lines. You cannot reuse a sliver a second time to check because the lines blur and the slot made becomes rounded rather than two crisp lines.

Set your micrometer jaws on the change desired and compare the impression lines to the gap between the micrometer jaws. When the gap on the stick matches the micrometer gap, that is your desired change.

Two things.

(1) Do this with/for ammo you will have a lot of. Putting back the metal on the front sight is a lot of work if you decide to change ammo or your case of LCX456 runs out and you start using Pusan489.

(2) Shoot a bunch of 10 shot groups before you decide the changes needed. Only when the group centers are in the same place with your shooting should you even consider changing the front sight.

As a quick screening device about where a carbine will shoot in relation to its slider settings at that slider set distance, look at the front sight, but from the side, left to right or right to left. Note that there are holes in the two front sight wings. Using the situation where a shooter wants a point of aim/point of impact sight adjustment style, the following would apply and is very often quite correct is assessing the sights.

If in looking, you line up the top of the holes/circles straight across with each other and then see that the top of the front sight post is materially above the top of the holes, most likely it is a new front sight that has never been cut down to zero that carbine. As such it is too tall and will cause the carbine to shoot low. It can be shortened.

If in looking, you see the top of the front sight post is about even with the top of the holes, then it has been cut down some. That location means it will probably shoot close to the distances set on the slider. Nothing to do but shoot it and see how it goes.

If in looking, you see the top of the front sight post is well under the top of the holes, again it has been cut down, but probably too much. Too short of a front sight will make it shoot high at the distance set on the slider.

That is a lot harder problem to solve. The US Army and the Italians welded up the top of too low front sights during rebuilds and then machined them off to look as an original new sight would have looked. It is sort of hard to do unless you intend to refinish the metal. Welding and grinding is messy and obvious unless done before a refinish. The resulting sights often had what appears to be metal missing from the shooter side of the front sight post. Rather than be perfectly square, there would be little holes. I had never heard of this until recently.

In the event a shooter is looking for a lollipop point of aim/point of impact is higher style of adjustment, then the front sight in each example would be ever so slightly lower.

If you have a carbine with a front sight cut too low so that USGI spec ammo shoots too high no matter what you do, don't give up completely or start hammering on the front sight in frustration. Some of the commercial ammo are 100fps+ slower than USGI and shoot lower. Find some commercial stuff that is slow or slower and it may well drop into the zero you want. Be sure of your impact points with good 10 round groups before you do anything. (3 shot groups are a joke and exist only because magazine gun writers can't keep more than three shots close together with most rifles, 5 shot groups need a bunch of groups for statistical analysis, and 10 shot groups provide good data very quickly.)



Carbine Ejection Patterns:

A common problem with Carbines is that some eject cases straight back into the shooter’s face. This is especially a problem for left handed shooters and ladies. One cause is old dead ejector springs powering one shape of ejector head versus another of several shapes. The other common cause is the early model flat forward faced slides rather than the angled later model slides designed to correct ejection problems. Changing slides is expensive while changing ejectors and springs is relative inexpensive. Doing so for most people requires a Carbine bolt tool purchased or borrowed.

So the inexpensive fix is to find an ejector and spring that is new with a different head shape than the one you have currently. There are cylinders, three faceted wedges, an almost cone shape, and bevels. A different shape and a new spring will often kick the brass out to the side.

Keep in mind that some of these shapes have functioning problems.

The three faceted wedge shape is hard to make and has some functioning problems when it wears. Little grooves develpe that trap the rim between the extractor and the wedge at the groove.

The cone shaped ones look like a bevel that was overdone and come to a dunce cap shape with a flat end. They are not too often seen.

The cylinders are simply a cut off rod with square corners. They sometimes work and sometimes cause horrid problems. In a particular bolt, if they stick out the slightest bit too far, then if a cartridge case bounces high in the reloading cycle, the rim comes down against the sharp corner and sticks. It becomes trapped between the extractor and the side of the ejector below the sharp corner.

The case will not go down to get in front of the ejector, but instead sticks the case high solidly enough to stop the bolt's motion. If you retract the slide to look, there is nothing wrong and the case chambers perfectly. I dislike the cylinders for this reason and think they are useless except for quickly machining into a bevel shape. The changed shape then works perfectly.

There is no magic in converting a cylinder to a bevel. Deleting the sharp corner of the cylinder makes a bevel. It needs to be evenly cut and then polished perfectly. Holding the spring end of the ejector in a drill press on slow, using a fine file at 45 degrees, gently rolling the file to deburr the edge and the flat, and then polishing with 400-600 paper backed up with wood works well. When the sharp corner is gone, a high rim slides over the bevel, gets in front of the ejector, and slips under the extracter lip. The round chambers without incident. In general, if your carbine has a cylinder, swap it out as the first item if there is the slightest feeding problem.

The bevels look like a cylinder, except the sharp corner is faced off at about 45 degrees leaving a smaller round flat, a short sloped side, and the straight body. They are the best for reliability.

The other expensive fix is to replace the early flat faced type slide. It is square where it goes up against the rear of the handguard wood. It fits about flush with the wood. Get a slide that is a later model with an angled cut rather than a square face. The metal is shaped and has a distinct bevel angled away from the handguard wood. The were designed to kick the brass away from the shooter out to the right. If you aren’t concerned with “collectability” then trade a collector your desireable early model slide for his undesireable later shooter type slide. You may get lucky.

Sometimes simply cleaning the bolt and its small parts and installing a new ejector spring will make a new ejection pattern that does not hit the shooter in the face. Using a different ejector head type helps make the change more positive. An angled slide almost always works.

Carbine Ejection Problems (Most often short stroking with underpowered ammo)June 20, 2009

Most carbine ejection problems are caused by stuck, dirty, chipped, or crudded up bolt face components that need detail stripped, cleaned including the deep holes, and reassembled to even begin diagnosis. Some of that was talked about above.

The other cause of extraction/ejection failures is underpowered ammo, most notably Aguila which is on the order of 200 feet per second slow compared to US commercial and USGI ammo.

The usual question goes something like "I recently purchased a carbine from CMP and it has ejection problems. The carbine is yet to fire more than a couple of rounds without it either (a) failing to fully extract the spent cartridge from the barrel, or (b) the slide catching the spent casing on it's way out, usually in the form of a stovepipe. I am using Aguila ammo. This is my second carbine from CMP and the first one shoots great with the same ammo."

The answer without actually seeing the carbine fire is that most likely the underpowered Aguila ammo is not fully opening the slide and bolt. Get some full power ammo, WW, RP, or FC and try it. Do not start changing springs especially not operating springs.

Do soak and clean the bolt face parts until you can completely disassemble it and clean each part and deep hole.

When you can, replace the bolt face ejector and extractor plunger springs at a minimum, or the whole assemblies if you can.

Please note that the little manualette sent out with carbines is an early one that has the incorrect bolt face parts pictured and the incorrect means of disassembly. TB 23-7-1, Page 39, Para. 26 is outdated since written in 1942 and should never be followed. Likewise the silly corrosive primer cleaning with water instructions at Page 45, Para. 32 do not apply to a firearm never issued with corrosive primed ammo. In the same Para. 32, instructions to take apart the gas piston are not applicable to staked nut systems adopted after the manual was written.

This not updated original manual has simply punching out the extractor for the first version of those parts. It does NOT apply to every carbine probably ever sold by the CMP. They all had the later parts held together with square shelves which do NOT punch out.

Punching out the redesigned standard later parts will wreck the extractor, plunger, and sometimes hurt the bolt. You need a tool and need to make sure your "manual" is not the silly one with the wrong directions for a superceded version of the bolt face parts.

If we think about the two carbines, it would help a bit. One works with Aguila even though it is underpowered. The other does not open up far enough to extract and then eject.

Extract is pulling it out of the chamber while ejection is getting it out of the action.

Why the difference between the two guns? It is all a matter of gas volume entering the gas piston and the effects thereafter on bolt velocity.

The bolt and its parts and the slide and its parts are a standard weight. No real variation.

What varies is the size of the gas port and thus the amount of gas to the piston, the strength of the operating/slide spring having more or less resistence and the strength/friction of the hammer on the bottom of the bolt having more or less drag.

The carbine that works with low pressure ammo has any or all of the following in various increments: a normal to large size gas port, a weak slide spring, and/or a weak hammer spring. Lots of bolt velocity is the result and the bolt goes all the way to the rear. That combination of parts works with Aguila.

The one working with Aguila would probably batter the action with hotter ammo because the bolt would go faster than normal and whack the slide and bolt on the rear quite firmly.

The carbine that does not work with Aguila is probably in better condition oddly enough and has any or all of the following: A normal to small gas port, a strong slide spring, and/or a strong hammer spring. Too little bolt velocity to go all the way to the rear is the result. That combination of parts does not work with Aguila but would probably work fine with full power ammo.

Increasing the slide spring strength will make it worse not better. The fellows who tell you to change the slide spring to a new one mean a stronger one. That is the opposite fix you need to keep using Aguila.

What the shooter needs is ammo that puts the right amount of gas into the beginning of the cycle. Then you diagnose from there. The slide spring is probably adequate as long as it has enough power to strip a cartridge from a full magazine and fully lock the bolt down and push the slide forward. Pull it to the rear over a full magazine, let it fly, and if it closes completely move on to another problem because that spring has enough power.

Once you have proper ammo, the shooter should only then worry about a weak slide spring letting the action batter. Or worry about a weak hammer spring causing misfires. Or worry about dead bolt face springs.

All the yap back and forth ammounts to a simple job for the shooter. Figure out why there is not enough bolt velocity to go all the way to the rear when it fires. Aguila is the obvious answer in this common question. If that is not the answer, then it is a harder problem.

The bolt to eject has to go all the way to the rear to have enough time open to eject. The bolt to extract has to go almost all the way to the rear to clear the chamber. The bolt to feed a new shell has to go almost all the way to the rear to pick the new rim up out of the magazine. Farther back allows the magazine to rise the top rim higher into the boltway. To feed and fully lock, the carbine has to start from at or nearly fully open whacking the back on purpose so it stops.

Too much velocity from idiot handloads will whack the bolt and slide so hard that it bounces forward faster than the magazine can rise the top round. That is battering. It does not happen with any factory ammo. A really really weak slide spring may allow this to happen also, but ordinarily not. Think of it this way. Inertia of the parts retards opening. The spring closes the action up again. As long as it fully closes, the spring is not all that bad.


SR 200 Yard Target MOA Comparisons

The 200 yard standing and sitting target used in National Match shooting, or more commonly the SR Center, is a ready reference for carbine accuracy. The accuracy article embedded above has a reference to that target, but no MOA reference. To help make the point for those not familiar with that targt, the dimensions are:

X ring = 3 inches //// translation 1.5moa @ 200 yards

10 ring = 7 inches //// translation 3.5moa @ 200 yards

9 ring = 13 inches //// translation 6.5moa @ 200 yards

Add 6" to the diameter of each additional scoring ring as in

8 ring = 13+6=19

7 ring = 19+6=25

6 ring = 25+6=31

5 ring = 31+6=37

More than that doesn't show up on the SR center.

Keeping most shots inside the 10 ring on the SR center at 200 yards is an achievement for a carbine and that ring is 3.5moa. Even then some sneak out most of the time. The accuracy article makes much more sense of this idea, but in short 3.5moa is a major achievement, anywhere from 3-8moa is quite commom, and only with great rarity do carbines at 100 or 200 yards shoot groups smaller than 3.5moa. Even if the firearm could, the ammo can't.

(C) 2015

###

Last edited by .Steve.; 03-10-2016 at 03:07 PM. Reason: Accuracy Article Moved To Own Sticky: Aguila 2016 data fps added.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 12-03-2009, 02:45 PM
.Steve. .Steve. is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 814
Default

Yes, Steve. got turned into .Steve..

No, I do not know how to make it stay at the top of the page.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 12-03-2009, 04:49 PM
phil441 phil441 is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: North Central Texas
Posts: 94
Default

I thought that must be you.
Where 'ya been? You must have found a way around your connection speed.

It's good to see you back where you belong.

Phil

PS, I've sent a message to Ghost in the Machine asking how to get your Tutorials back in the sticky section where we can find them.

Last edited by phil441; 12-03-2009 at 09:53 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 12-04-2009, 08:43 AM
.Steve. .Steve. is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 814
Default Thanks

Between soybeans, corn, and deer season, I let it slip too long. I got some help from one of the CMP techs and figured it out so I could post. I went through the long post and edited back in most of the formating lost in the copy/paste operation so it is a little easier reading.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 12-04-2009, 10:21 AM
Fishman Fishman is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Washington State
Posts: 437
Default

Steve,Im confused about what you wrote in 8b regarding ammo.The part about Agulia and S&B being to slow but in the chronograph test results S&B appeared to do well.I was going to order some S&B ammo but this could be a deal breaker.Thanks for your post it has a lot of useful info.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 12-04-2009, 11:23 AM
.Steve. .Steve. is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 814
Default

Hansen, Korean PSD, Lake City, and the 15.0/WW296 reload are full power USGI spec. If a gun works, it works with them. Korean may be a tad slow in some lots, but its pressure curve matches functioning requirements.

Below them are a group that lingers around 1900fps. S&B would be in this group. It did not impress me, but works in most guns. Most of the ammos in this velocity range work adequately in a functioning carbine.

Below those even are a group including Aguila that drops so slow as to consistently cause trouble. I avoid them.

You are right to pay attention to the listed test velocities more so than opinions.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 12-04-2009, 12:16 PM
imarangemaster imarangemaster is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Northern California
Posts: 517
Default S&B ammo

I think the chronograph says it all. about 40 fps slow. I shoot S&B and it prints to almost the exact POA as LC ball.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 12-04-2009, 11:11 PM
phil441 phil441 is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: North Central Texas
Posts: 94
Default

Steve's tutorials are back where they belong.
All's right with the Carbine world now.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 01-02-2010, 09:02 AM
J.R.2009 J.R.2009 is online now
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Mt. Pleasant, SC
Posts: 8,145
Default

I had never read the entire post before. Had to print it out. Want to guess how many pages it took?
J.R.
__________________
J.R.

Home of the FREE Carbine Club Newsletter Index [email protected]
I do NOT have newsletters to sell! ONLY our INDEX of what is in each issue. To get the issues see the link for the Carbine collectors Club.
http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/

USAF 379th Bomb Wing (Heavy) SAC
Gun Owners of SC
GCA
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 09-01-2010, 09:15 AM
Harleygaz Harleygaz is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 23
Default

Hi. I'm just starting reloading and this sticky was very informative for me. However I do have a question - the latest Hornady Reloading manual shows a starting load of 14gr H110 with a max of 14.9 giving 2000fps. If I read the article correctly the recommendation is to not drop below 14.55gr (15 - 3%). Would 14 fail to cycle properly or even leave the bullet lodged in the barrel? Should I start at 14.6gr?
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:03 PM.