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  #11  
Old 09-24-2018, 11:47 AM
S99VG S99VG is offline
 
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Location: Northern California
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chuckindenver View Post
same issues as an original scope.
look at it like this. when this system was in use.
we just started to have refrigerators in homes,
average car had a flat head 6 in it,
no common cars or trucks had power windows or A/C.
TV was a new fad, and most homes didn't have a phone in them
Well put - actually I think back then TV was more cutting edge technology that smart phones are today. It's a new scope but based on an old design and optics and should be expected to reflect that.
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  #12  
Old 09-24-2018, 01:53 PM
emerson opdyck emerson opdyck is offline
 
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Location: NE Ohio
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I've grown up (and old) with antiques; tractors, Jeeps, guns, tools. I'm not expecting the same performance as a Leupold VX in a 60+ year old design.
I've also given some thought to the chances of getting Hi-Lux to replace/repair one of their scopes versus finding someone who can fix a Lyman or Unertl.
I've got a line on on a Hi-Lux with Lyman mounts, and a Lyman Jr. Target w/mounts. So I'd be OK with the Hi-Lux?
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  #13  
Old 09-24-2018, 02:39 PM
chuckindenver chuckindenver is offline
 
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personally I like the Lyman super spot on my rifle, but, have seen the Hi Lux scopes work very well. they are a 500.00 scope.. you may find a Lyman for that in rough shape..
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  #14  
Old 09-25-2018, 09:41 AM
ceresco ceresco is offline
 
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The requirements for sniper scopes on 1903 rifles are found in table 7 pg 42. My 7/8" Unertl has gone to the last three sniper matches at CP. Initially, it passed with the Dehorned Unertl mounts after close scrutiny and no mention of disqualification. I did change to a Unertl target type adjustment turret and use a plastic lense cover with a 1/4" hole to hold parallax issues to a minimum as if does not have an adjustable objective. Again no issues at inspection. It is a fine scope and it meets all the requirements for a "non-issue scope" in table 7. I agree with Chuck that strange (and unfortunate) things can happen at inspections and I am definately less comfortable since Leon retired from CMP. I would also mention that doing anything out of the mainstream will attract (generally) unwanted attention; so keep this in mind when choosing your equipment and always have a current rule book with you-- something I learned early on....... Good Shooting. ..

Last edited by ceresco; 09-25-2018 at 09:45 AM.
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  #15  
Old 09-25-2018, 10:02 AM
cplnorton cplnorton is offline
 
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The op was asking earlier about a 1'' target Unertl scope.

The original USMC sniper 8X Unertl was a 1 1/4'' Unertl.

The Chinese in all their infinite wisdom didn't copy the correct 1 1/4'' Unertl. They copied a 1'' Unertl.

To further detail their research into the subject they didn't copy the Unertl mounts on the original Unertl USMC scopes. They copied lyman mounts. lol

So you have the wrong type of Unertl scope copied, and the wrong maker mounts as well.

Chuck gives good advice on the lyman Supertargetspot. I have one as well as original 8X Unertls and the lyman is in everyway just as good as the Unertl. I know they are rarer in 8X. But I've seen some.

The Marines did have some Supertargetspots that were used by the rifle teams pre war, and post war. But it was in very small numbers. Way less than the "Books" detail.

I can count less than 20 total with the purchase orders pre and post war.

The only issue with a lyman super target spot, the mounts on a lyman are not as tall as a Unertl. So with lyman mounts you need taller blocks to clear the bolt. The same is true of the repo since the Chinese copied the lyman mounts.

Last edited by cplnorton; 09-25-2018 at 11:19 AM.
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  #16  
Old 09-25-2018, 10:18 AM
cplnorton cplnorton is offline
 
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Here is a comparison bwt a Supertargetspot and a real 8X USMC Unertl.

I don't have a chinese copy to photograph, but the chinese one is over 3 inches shorter in length and it doesn't look right on a rifle.

In my opinion the lyman actually looks better than the repo and is for sure better quality. They are more technically correct too as the Marines never bought 1'' Unertl target scopes, but did buy 12X Supertargetspots for their Model 70 team rifles.








It's hard to photograph but I was trying to show the height difference between the lyman and Unertl mounts. The Unertl is on the left.

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  #17  
Old 09-25-2018, 10:22 AM
cplnorton cplnorton is offline
 
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Actually I don't know if you can fight this with the CMP.

All the Lyman Supertargetspots the Marines bought were in 12X. At least everyone I can document.

That would be incredible if you could try to get the vintage matches to allow 12X Supertargetspots for competition. The only catch even though I can prove that is what they used in the late 30's, and then again in the 1950's on their model 70's. They were team rifles and I'm not sure the cmp would allow that for the "Sniper" variation.

But if they did, that 12X would dominate on the 600 yard line. lol
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  #18  
Old 09-25-2018, 10:47 AM
ceresco ceresco is offline
 
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Adding 10x and 12x scopes would increase the number of scopes available (and lower the cost) to interested vintage sniper competitors tremendously....something I would like to see. Most of the Unertl, Fecker and Lyman scopes made were above 8x. I do not believe that increasing the power above 8x would make much difference on scores. There is ample evidence for this both in service rifle 600yd data and in the results at the vintage sniper matches. Good Shooting. ....
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  #19  
Old 09-25-2018, 10:59 AM
cplnorton cplnorton is offline
 
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If someone wants to fight it. This is in the detailed log of all the team stuff being transferred to Albany in 1954 when the Philly Depot was closing.

I also know I have the same thing in 1938 detailing 12X supertargetspots.

How they call these sniper rifles were because they were used in the 1000 yard, any sight, any rifle matches. It was just a nickname I see in the Marine docs that they used on rifles for the 1000 yard matches. It was first the heavy barrel M1903's, then the Marines went to the model 54 WRA, and then finally the Model 70 in 300 Magnum or 300 H&H pre war.

Someone gets anywhere arguing with the cmp on this, I will provide the full copy of the documents so they can prove the Marines had them. You see a ton of 12X Supertargetspots out there. That would be awesome if they would allow them.


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  #20  
Old 09-25-2018, 11:47 AM
emerson opdyck emerson opdyck is offline
 
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Location: NE Ohio
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From what I've found, the Supertargetspot wasn't made any lower than 10x, and even the Jr Targetspot at 8x is hard to find. Several guys who collect scopes tell me that as soon as they get a Lyman in 8x, it's sold.
ChuckinDenver: If I use a Lyman mounts, which height bases do I order from Steve Earle?
With the Lyman bases, will there be interference between the bolt handle and the scope so that I'll have to grind a groove it the bolt handle?
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