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  #21  
Old 01-10-2019, 09:24 AM
Hrfunk Hrfunk is offline
 
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by broomhandle View Post
If you ran it as one continuous stage starting 150 feet closing in to the 15 foot target, and didn’t add any extra time allowance for movement, that might be a good course of fire. Start with no mag in gun, and 10 rounds per magazine so you have 2 mag changes in the drill.

Quote from AWOhio

Hi Sir,

Your comment is well taken
...BUT....
The rifle used in the video is a five shot bolt action, originally designed in 1903! It does not have a magazine !

It is loaded with a five shot stripper clip from the top of the action. The stripper clip locates in a machined cutout that allows for a comparatively quick reload.

Have a GREAT new year,
broom
I believe what AWOhio was saying is that the course should be more demanding for application to modern patrol rifles. I agree with him, incidentally; but the Governor has not called to ask me my opinion (He's so inconsiderate, that way!)

Howard
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  #22  
Old 01-10-2019, 09:41 AM
broomhandle broomhandle is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Augusta GA- X NYC guy
Posts: 486
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Hi AWOhio,

Sorry for not understanding your reply, about the practice stage!
I stand corrected!

Enjoy each day,
broom
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  #23  
Old 01-10-2019, 09:42 AM
kb1903 kb1903 is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: s/e pa.
Posts: 95
Default 03 vrs patrol rifle

Good video. Looked like fun, however, in each of your "narratives" you are holding the 03 with the bolt closed and the cocking piece in the cocked or rearward position. This would get you an immediate "unsafe act" chewing out at most ranges that I have ever been to. A novice shooter watching your video could well get the impression that it's OK. Just sayn. Ken
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  #24  
Old 01-10-2019, 10:40 AM
Hrfunk Hrfunk is offline
 
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kb1903 View Post
Good video. Looked like fun, however, in each of your "narratives" you are holding the 03 with the bolt closed and the cocking piece in the cocked or rearward position. This would get you an immediate "unsafe act" chewing out at most ranges that I have ever been to. A novice shooter watching your video could well get the impression that it's OK. Just sayn. Ken
Point taken! Thanks for watching!

Howard
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  #25  
Old 01-10-2019, 06:46 PM
AWOhio AWOhio is offline
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Columbus OH
Posts: 279
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HRF,
Sounds like you are a LEO. Do any of your fellow officers have any trouble qualifying with the OPOTA course of fire? My brother, who is an officer in Maryland sees a wide discrepancy between marksmanship skills between officers in his department.

I am in Columbus Oh. If you ever get down toward Columbus or Zanesville for shooting, it would be fun to meet up.

Andy
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  #26  
Old 01-11-2019, 07:23 AM
Hrfunk Hrfunk is offline
 
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AWOhio View Post
HRF,
Sounds like you are a LEO. Do any of your fellow officers have any trouble qualifying with the OPOTA course of fire? My brother, who is an officer in Maryland sees a wide discrepancy between marksmanship skills between officers in his department.

I am in Columbus Oh. If you ever get down toward Columbus or Zanesville for shooting, it would be fun to meet up.

Andy
Hi Andy! Thanks for the invitation. I am a police officer, and I've been a firearms instructor since the early '90's. Unfortunately, there are more than a few officers who struggle with firearms qualification. The weapon-specific courses used to be more challenging, and they incorporated things like low-light shooting, shooting from cover, and shooting while moving. Circa 2010, the courses were revised. There were allegedly two reasons for changing the qualification standards. The first was purportedly the ammunition requirement and associated cost for annual qualification. The old pistol qual course required the shooter to fire 60 rounds. That doesn't sound like much until you multiply that by 800 or so for a department like Akron (I can't remember right off the top of my head how many officers Columbus PD employs, but they would be in the same ball park). Then when you consider that ammo is just for qualification, and it doesn't cover any other training that an officer might undergo with his/her handgun during he course of the year (which can be significant depending upon the officer's assignment); AND you have to consider that it doesn't include qualification/training with any other firearm(s) that officer might use (shotgun, patrol rifle, etc), and you can see how the ammo cost for a large department could be considerable.

That said, I think the "we don't have enough money for ammunition" argument is a weak one. The statement should actually be: "We have the money, but we want to spend it on other things that make us feel warm and fuzzy." With my former department, it was a fight every year to get the city to allocate the necessary funds to purchase ammunition for annual firearms training and qualification. My ammunition expenditure was a literal drop in the bucket in the overall city budget. Meanwhile, the same city that always balked at the idea of buying bullets for police officers never seemed to have any trouble installing decorative clocks in the downtown area; building a dog park for people to walk their dogs; maintaining a swimming pool (that looses money every year), or doing anything else that the incumbent poo-bahs think might tickle the fancy of their constituents.

Ostensibly, the other driving factor for dumbing down Police qualification standards came from the Commanders of "Open-Enrollment Police Academies." According to that group, the former qualification courses were too difficult for new cadets to pass given the time allocated for firearms training during the overall academy curriculum. This one bothers me even more than the "we don't have the money...." argument. Essentially what was happening was cadets undergoing academy training were failing to pass the firearms qualification and therefore failing the academy. The simple solution to that is TEACH THEM TO SHOOT! For years I would receive new officers fresh from the academy, and one of the first orders of business was to conduct a qualification with their duty pistol, patrol shotgun, and patrol rifle before they could commence their Field Training Officer program. It was utterly amazing to me how poorly these recent academy graduates shot. They were GREAT at making their pistol fire at the cyclic rate of an MG42, but hitting something on the other end was a very iffy proposition! I would actually have to begin with basic sight alignment, sight picture, etc. to get some of those youngsters to the point where they could qualify. They DID, however, eventually meet the standard.

In any case, the state conceded to the wishes of the large departments and the various academy commanders, and we now have what I affectionately call the "Helen Keller Commemorative Qualification Standards." Even so, there are still officers who struggle when it comes to meeting those standards. Sorry for the rant, I need more coffee (until it gets late enough that I can have some bourbon!)

Howard
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  #27  
Old 01-11-2019, 02:26 PM
JimF JimF is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 887
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“Helen Keller Commemorative Qualification Standards” . .

I LOVE IT!!!

Things sure have changed since I was a LEO also! (Early 1960’s).

I’m told that now officers, in SOME departments, are trained to “empty their magazines” at the perp . . . even after he’s down! (So much for ammo “expense/shortages”, eh?)

What ever happened to marksmanship? Fire control discipline?

Bye-the-bye . . . .

I also enjoy your videos! —Jim
__________________
--Jim
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  #28  
Old 01-11-2019, 06:58 PM
pickax pickax is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Daytona Beach Fla.
Posts: 950
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Thank you Howard for elaborating on the standards employed, and politics involved.
I watched the video and, like most, saw the low standard for qualification.
All I can add is what used to work in my county in Fla. is reloading by the 'old guard' for cadets basic, and loads needed for SWAT.
We had a Military retired, then City LEO, then County training officer working in his budget to make it happen. He also made them jump through barriers to shoot realistically.
This was over ten years ago, and I'm sure he is finally gone enjoying 3 pensions now, and the program devolved.

Last edited by pickax; 01-12-2019 at 05:40 AM.
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  #29  
Old 01-13-2019, 12:22 PM
M1fuzz M1fuzz is online now
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: NE Nebraska
Posts: 250
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Great video Howard!!!

You have done it with an ‘03 and a M1. I think you could make easy work of it with a M1 carbine!! I think that course could be cleaned with a Swiss straight pull Schmidt-Rubin with it’s fast action!!!

Since you make great videos along with your video equipment and expertise can I propose something to you? I am a LEO and Firearms Instructor and I would really like to send you my state’s patrol rifle course along with a couple of our targets and do comparision shoot with Ohio’s. What do you say?
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  #30  
Old 01-13-2019, 12:51 PM
Hrfunk Hrfunk is offline
 
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M1fuzz View Post
Great video Howard!!!

You have done it with an ‘03 and a M1. I think you could make easy work of it with a M1 carbine!! I think that course could be cleaned with a Swiss straight pull Schmidt-Rubin with it’s fast action!!!

Since you make great videos along with your video equipment and expertise can I propose something to you? I am a LEO and Firearms Instructor and I would really like to send you my state’s patrol rifle course along with a couple of our targets and do comparision shoot with Ohio’s. What do you say?
I say that sounds like fun! You can forward them to me at the address below if you like. By the way, I would love to run this course with a 30 Carbine, but I don't have one (Darn it!). My former Captain has one and I keep hoping he'll give it to me since I'm such a swell guy; but he keeps prattling on, something about passing it on to his grandson. Some people are SO unreasonable!

Howard R. Funk
c/o Smithville Police Department
PO Box 517
Smithville, OH 44677
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