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  #11  
Old 08-08-2018, 01:51 AM
Gewehr43 Gewehr43 is offline
 
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Originally Posted by ceresco View Post
My point... Well: I understand why CMP would like everyone to do everything the same way and safely. That's fine with me and I will go with the shooting stool. I find it curious that they would change the rule for 2018 to allow resting the muzzle on the stool. Write the rules commitee if you want to, I don't much care. Good Shooting. ...

They won't care if I write them either.................
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  #12  
Old 08-08-2018, 01:55 AM
Gewehr43 Gewehr43 is offline
 
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Originally Posted by canes7 View Post
I guess that some yum-yum ********ed in your Wheaties...

Yeah I made a few assumptions. Itís hard to cover every possibility of every situation but this being the internet and all, some yum-yum will pretend he can.

If the yum-yum I watched at the Nationals last week had his muzzle pointing at his feet when he cranked off a round, instead of down range............ I could tell you his name but for now it's yum-yum.
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  #13  
Old 08-08-2018, 05:51 PM
rickgman rickgman is offline
 
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Gentlemen, As Gewehr43 noted, a rifle discharged into the ground is potentially dangerous. I have seen a number of ricochets in my time and they are sometimes very unpredictable. One never knows what is an inch below the surface of the ground - it could be a rock. I had a good friend (now deceased) who was a law enforcement firearms training officer who accidentally shot himself when a round hit the floor in front of him and ricocheted back and struck him in the leg. The AD was bad enough - the injury made the incident even worse for him. By all rights, the round should have deflected off of the floor and headed away from him - but it did not. I suspect that a large piece of coarse aggegate (a stone) lay just below the surface of the concrete and the projectile ricocheted rearward off of the piece of coarse aggregate. Furthermore to assume that every competitor has an empty weapon at any specific time during a match is foolishness. That's why RO's need to be constantly observant for safety violations. I prefer the old technique of pointing a weapon upward or down range if at all practical. Sometimes that doesn't work out - especially when it comes to tactical training - but in my mind it is the best bet if it is possible.
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  #14  
Old 08-08-2018, 09:38 PM
ceresco ceresco is offline
 
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IIRC, what provoked my initial interest in this matter was the advent of the very short M4 carbines. Resting (that's what this is about, not where you point rifles) a M4 muzzle up, butt on the ground or even on a stool evokes an image of a round going into someone's forehead. I agree that a round going into a concrete surface would be bad, but the forehead would be worse. Knowing the propensity for instant bolt closure when any rifle or carbine beginning with "M" is bumped reinforces the image of one going off. I understand the need for uniformity in some areas of match procedures. I would, however, like to know the thinking that went into the last 2018 rule change. I can't see folding my hands over the butt plate and poking a hole in the fabric of the shooting stool with the muzzle, so I guess I'll continue looking at it. Good Shooting. .. Addendum: I neglected to make it clear at the outset that all my comments regarding rules are in reference to the CMP GAMES Rule book, not the SERVICE RIFLE book.

Last edited by ceresco; 08-08-2018 at 10:01 PM. Reason: Clarity
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  #15  
Old 08-09-2018, 12:45 AM
Gewehr43 Gewehr43 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ceresco View Post
IIRC, what provoked my initial interest in this matter was the advent of the very short M4 carbines. Resting (that's what this is about, not where you point rifles) a M4 muzzle up, butt on the ground or even on a stool evokes an image of a round going into someone's forehead. I agree that a round going into a concrete surface would be bad, but the forehead would be worse. Knowing the propensity for instant bolt closure when any rifle or carbine beginning with "M" is bumped reinforces the image of one going off. I understand the need for uniformity in some areas of match procedures. I would, however, like to know the thinking that went into the last 2018 rule change. I can't see folding my hands over the butt plate and poking a hole in the fabric of the shooting stool with the muzzle, so I guess I'll continue looking at it. Good Shooting. .. Addendum: I neglected to make it clear at the outset that all my comments regarding rules are in reference to the CMP GAMES Rule book, not the SERVICE RIFLE book.

Actually.... you could start with the M1 Carbine, it is short.

Actually this has just as much if nor more to do with where you are pointing the rifle as where you are resting it.


Safety in this case, should be layered.
If you follow the laser rule, the muzzle won't cover your or anyone elses forehead. Nor would it point at your toes or someone elses. If you follow the CMP rules, you won't have a loaded magazine inserted with the bolt open anyways.

I would like to know the thinking as to why you would put the rifle muzzle down anyways.............. there is no advantage to that (and several disadvantages) and so why do it?
PS..... You mentioned in your first post you don't use a stool, so why are you worried about somehow poking a hole in one now?
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Last edited by Gewehr43; 08-09-2018 at 12:57 AM.
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  #16  
Old 08-09-2018, 04:59 AM
rickgman rickgman is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ceresco View Post
IIRC, what provoked my initial interest in this matter was the advent of the very short M4 carbines. Resting (that's what this is about, not where you point rifles) a M4 muzzle up, butt on the ground or even on a stool evokes an image of a round going into someone's forehead. I agree that a round going into a concrete surface would be bad, but the forehead would be worse. Knowing the propensity for instant bolt closure when any rifle or carbine beginning with "M" is bumped reinforces the image of one going off. I understand the need for uniformity in some areas of match procedures. I would, however, like to know the thinking that went into the last 2018 rule change. I can't see folding my hands over the butt plate and poking a hole in the fabric of the shooting stool with the muzzle, so I guess I'll continue looking at it. Good Shooting. .. Addendum: I neglected to make it clear at the outset that all my comments regarding rules are in reference to the CMP GAMES Rule book, not the SERVICE RIFLE book.
When using a shooting stool, if one rests the butt of the rifle on the stool, the muzzle isn't pointed at the shooter's forehead. The stool is offset from his feet and thus his head really isn't close to being over the muzzle. Now if one places the carbine's butt on the ground at his feet, that can be a different matter since there is not necessarily an offset.

Hitting a rock in the dirt has potentially the same effect as hitting a concrete floor.
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  #17  
Old 08-09-2018, 09:58 AM
ceresco ceresco is offline
 
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Gosh, thanks guys. Good Shooting. ..
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  #18  
Old 08-09-2018, 07:23 PM
Gewehr43 Gewehr43 is offline
 
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Originally Posted by ceresco View Post
Gosh, thanks guys. Good Shooting. ..

Sure, No problem..............

So what is the advantage to resting the rifle muzzle down?
Why are you doing it in the first place?
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  #19  
Old 08-09-2018, 09:56 PM
ceresco ceresco is offline
 
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Minimalist....no shooting stool. It worked fine but, turns out that it was not legal prior to this year. Rule was; "....pointed either up or downrange....." in 2006 there was one 52 page rule book for all CMP competition. Now there are two rule books, each well over 100 pages. Somebody has been busy. Good Shooting. ..
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  #20  
Old 08-10-2018, 12:40 AM
Gewehr43 Gewehr43 is offline
 
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Originally Posted by ceresco View Post
Minimalist....no shooting stool. It worked fine but, turns out that it was not legal prior to this year. Rule was; "....pointed either up or downrange....." in 2006 there was one 52 page rule book for all CMP competition. Now there are two rule books, each well over 100 pages. Somebody has been busy. Good Shooting. ..

No I got that, you have said several times now, "No stool." But why are you resting the rifle muzzle down, that is the question. What is wrong with the butt plate on the ground?
Instead of resting the muzzle down in your hat?

What is the advantage to muzzle down?
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