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  #11  
Old 08-29-2016, 12:33 AM
JayhawkNavy02 JayhawkNavy02 is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Greg Ficklin View Post
The Ruger MKII or III are fantastic pistols for the .22 EIC. In fact the achievement pins have their image on them them. Any .22 in good working order that fits the guidelines can clean the course of fire with good functioning ammo. Just like rifle EIC, it's the shooter that earns the points. Use the pistol you have and save the money for ammo, and good pistol box to be organised. Mine is a S&W 41 7". It's as good a pistol that has ever been made for .22 Bullseye, and a whole lot of MKII Rugers have kicked my fanny.
Not a fan of the Mk III. The S&W M41 is very good, without a doubt one of the best American 22s left, but not as good as a Pardini SP, Feinwerkbau AW93, or Hammerli 208 or the classic High Standards, and never will be. Much of that is due to the reliability, barrel blank and lack of adjustment. That's why you don't see them at the Olympics or with the military shooting teams. It doesn't mean it isn't a fine pistol, but there are better if funds are unlimited.

Again all can/will get you points. But there are some differences that only your wallet may be able to appreciate.

Last edited by JayhawkNavy02; 08-29-2016 at 09:06 AM.
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  #12  
Old 08-29-2016, 01:16 AM
Gewehr43 Gewehr43 is offline
 
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Originally Posted by JayhawkNavy02 View Post
Not a fan of the Mk III. The S&W M41 is good, but not as good as a Pardini SP, Feinwerkbau AW93, or Hammerli 208 or the High Standards, and never will be. That's why you don't see them at the Olympics or with the military shooting teams. It doesn't mean it isn't a fine pistol, but there are better if funds are unlimiteD.

Again all can/will get you points. But there are some differences that only your wallet may be able to appreciate.
Thanks for the information.............................. but the funds are definitely limited..................... in fact, there are none. Instead its whats in my safe right now..............

And I think the Ruger is better than the Stinger pen pistol I have.

I was just curious to start shooting in these matches and hoped the Ruger would be a good start..............

I'll see what ammunition seems to shoot the best and start playing...................
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  #13  
Old 08-29-2016, 07:58 AM
bpm32 bpm32 is offline
 
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I always tell a new shooter not to spend too much money on a .22 if his goal is just to shoot good scores. Some shooters like to own something really nice, or love the history of an old pistol, and that's fine. But to shoot .22 pistol well you don't need much.

.22 pistols are in an odd category because they're all pretty much equally accurate. Clamped in a vise, a $300 Ruger or Buckmark will typically shoot about as well as a $2500-3000 Feinwerkbau, Pardini, or Hammerli. What you do get for 8-10x the cost is an adjustable orthopedic grip (which will often be ill-fitting if you eat too much salty food or the outside temperature changes), an adjustable trigger, and really nice sights (the rear sight knotch width on an AW93 is adjustable). With the Pardini and Feinwerkbau you also get a bunch of weights on springs up front to minimize the punishing .22 recoil (critical in Olympic Rapid Fire, but unnecessary for CMP .22--there is plenty of time).

The only reason you don't see too many HM/MA types shooting Rugers or Buckmarks is because they don't want to look like they're showboating, or they're trying to justify $2500 pistols that they bought for NRA Bullseye (their "real jobs"), but just stuffed into the back of the safe. That's why you see a bunch of oddball pistols roll out for CMP .22 (Sako Tri-Ace anyone?). Like Distinguished Revolver, CMP .22 is considered a "fun match" by a lot of Bullseye shooters.
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  #14  
Old 08-29-2016, 03:24 PM
JayhawkNavy02 JayhawkNavy02 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bpm32 View Post
The only reason you don't see too many HM/MA types shooting Rugers or Buckmarks is because they don't want to look like they're showboating, or they're trying to justify $2500 pistols that they bought for NRA Bullseye (their "real jobs"), but just stuffed into the back of the safe. That's why you see a bunch of oddball pistols roll out for CMP .22 (Sako Tri-Ace anyone?). Like Distinguished Revolver, CMP .22 is considered a "fun match" by a lot of Bullseye shooters.
As far as HM, I've never heard of that as a motivation. Many are just using their regular 22 without an optic. Joe Chang, Rich Kang, John Hollingshead, Jon Eullete, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bpm32 View Post
.22 pistols are in an odd category because they're all pretty much equally accurate. Clamped in a vise, a $300 Ruger or Buckmark will typically shoot about as well as a $2500-3000 Feinwerkbau, Pardini, or Hammerli.
Can most/all factory 22s hold the 10 ring, sure. The Nelson/FWK/Pardini's I've seen tested had groups significantly smaller than the Rugers frequently, but my Nelson is right up there. My Ruger Mk III has never been close. Are they good enough to get points, again, sure. Most American barrel blanks are just not of the same quality. Are they good enough, again, sure.

Follow the red arrows (taken from a Master Gunsmith(Guild)/Bullseye Builder)

Bottom right: S&W 41 shows a small dimple from a stamped letter on the bottom. Heavy land to groove ratio and the tight bore less apparent.

Bottom left: High Standard barrel shows excellent well defined chamber, but the barrel ocking lug drill almost entered the chamber. Nice gentle lead angle.

Center right: S&W Model 41 which shows distinct variations in bore dimension (shadows)

Upper left: Another S&W Model 41 with a poorly cut chamber face, and an abrupt 5 degree lead angle . The radius extractor relief is very easy to see, and visualize/imagine the extractor problems these cuts can cause.

Top center: Ruger. No distinct chamber at all, just a hole. Rugers are testimony to the inherent accuracy of the 22 cartridge.

Top right: Lothar Walther, blurred but an example of the precise rifling and low land to groove ratio is apparent










Quote:
Originally Posted by bpm32 View Post
What you do get for 8-10x the cost is an adjustable orthopedic grip (which will often be ill-fitting if you eat too much salty food or the outside temperature changes), an adjustable trigger, and really nice sights (the rear sight knotch width on an AW93 is adjustable). With the Pardini and Feinwerkbau you also get a bunch of weights on springs up front to minimize the punishing .22 recoil (critical in Olympic Rapid Fire, but unnecessary for CMP .22--there is plenty of time).
Orthopedic grips should be fit and shouldn't be so tight that some snacks result in a poor fit.

Also, what hasn't been discussed is reliability. Pardini and Feinwerkbau are usually excellent. M41s often get a trip to the Doctor enough that some great gunsmiths making a living fixing M41s, see the link below. Again, I think they're the best American 22 made, they work great with CCI SV, which is cheap and they're a solid pistol that feels similar to a 1911. Even with a $250 package to get them squared away and another $300 for a blank you're well under a European target pistol with absolutely the same accuracy, but without the adjustment, which many don't care about anyway. Not sure you'll be able to recover those investments however.

http://kcskustomcreations.com/kcs-kustom-creations/

A downside to the high end European pistols is the expensive ammunition they prefer. The Ruger, Buckmark, M41 will often shoot very well with CCI SV. The Pardini/FWK/Hammerli seem to mandate the Eley/Lapua for reliability/accuracy. Significant cost to any/new shooter.

Personally I have a Nelson conversion, McMillan barrel, and use a dedicated lower. I can pull the rail off and use open sights, which I have attached to a dedicated barrel so I don't have a change in zero.
Lots of great options out there and many under $400 to $500. I very much like the Bukckmarks as a great starter pistol, especially with the spring flip.

Last edited by JayhawkNavy02; 08-29-2016 at 03:31 PM.
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  #15  
Old 08-29-2016, 04:28 PM
bpm32 bpm32 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JayhawkNavy02 View Post
As far as HM, I've never heard of that as a motivation. Many are just using their regular 22 without an optic. Joe Chang, Rich Kang, John Hollingshead, Jon Eullete, etc.



Can most/all factory 22s hold the 10 ring, sure. The Nelson/FWK/Pardini's I've seen tested had groups significantly smaller than the Rugers frequently, but my Nelson is right up there. My Ruger Mk III has never been close. Are they good enough to get points, again, sure. Most American barrel blanks are just not of the same quality. Are they good enough, again, sure.

Follow the red arrows (taken from a Master Gunsmith(Guild)/Bullseye Builder)

Bottom right: S&W 41 shows a small dimple from a stamped letter on the bottom. Heavy land to groove ratio and the tight bore less apparent.

Bottom left: High Standard barrel shows excellent well defined chamber, but the barrel ocking lug drill almost entered the chamber. Nice gentle lead angle.

Center right: S&W Model 41 which shows distinct variations in bore dimension (shadows)

Upper left: Another S&W Model 41 with a poorly cut chamber face, and an abrupt 5 degree lead angle . The radius extractor relief is very easy to see, and visualize/imagine the extractor problems these cuts can cause.

Top center: Ruger. No distinct chamber at all, just a hole. Rugers are testimony to the inherent accuracy of the 22 cartridge.

Top right: Lothar Walther, blurred but an example of the precise rifling and low land to groove ratio is apparent












Orthopedic grips should be fit and shouldn't be so tight that some snacks result in a poor fit.

Also, what hasn't been discussed is reliability. Pardini and Feinwerkbau are usually excellent. M41s often get a trip to the Doctor enough that some great gunsmiths making a living fixing M41s, see the link below. Again, I think they're the best American 22 made, they work great with CCI SV, which is cheap and they're a solid pistol that feels similar to a 1911. Even with a $250 package to get them squared away and another $300 for a blank you're well under a European target pistol with absolutely the same accuracy, but without the adjustment, which many don't care about anyway. Not sure you'll be able to recover those investments however.

http://kcskustomcreations.com/kcs-kustom-creations/

A downside to the high end European pistols is the expensive ammunition they prefer. The Ruger, Buckmark, M41 will often shoot very well with CCI SV. The Pardini/FWK/Hammerli seem to mandate the Eley/Lapua for reliability/accuracy. Significant cost to any/new shooter.

Personally I have a Nelson conversion, McMillan barrel, and use a dedicated lower. I can pull the rail off and use open sights, which I have attached to a dedicated barrel so I don't have a change in zero.
Lots of great options out there and many under $400 to $500. I very much like the Bukckmarks as a great starter pistol, especially with the spring flip.
My goal here wasn't to disparage European pistols, and my apologies if I offended anyone. We are part of the same community, know the same people, and I would never want to insult anyone for the pistol he shoots. My goal was only to assure a new shooter that he had plenty of gun to be competitive.

Would I chose a Ruger if I had a more expensive gun? In .22 EIC I did, but usually I wouldn't, because a more expensive gun can be customized a little for me and it's a little more fun to shoot. My scores typically don't change though with the .22 I shoot.

As far as the MD/VA shooters mentioned, one of them shot a Pardini at a match yesterday because it had "sat in the safe too long". Two of his three mags didn't feed the last round--which is not indicative of Pardinis, but it goes to show any gun can have hiccups. One of the shooters mentioned swore off Hammerlis and sold me his. The last shooter--and this is the only thing I'm going to say that actually matters--bought a $300 Ruger 22/45 and shot it stock with no modifications, and ended up with an 887 (or 889--something like that). It is, and always has been, about the shooter.
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  #16  
Old 08-29-2016, 04:50 PM
JayhawkNavy02 JayhawkNavy02 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bpm32 View Post
My goal here wasn't to disparage European pistols, and my apologies if I offended anyone. We are part of the same community, know the same people, and I would never want to insult anyone for the pistol he shoots. My goal was only to assure a new shooter that he had plenty of gun to be competitive.

It is, and always has been, about the shooter.
No doubt and no argument. I didn't think you were disparaging the European pistols, I just don't think they're equal. No worries. Joe has been shooting his Hammerli for years since the USAF Team, so I wouldn't think he would get rid of his 208s, heck I think there are interservice records he broke with it...lol. Rich Kang used to have a Nelson and Jon Eullete uses a Pardini, which he had at the last match and ran like a scalded dog. Are you thinking of Jon Shue? I believe he uses a Pardini, I moved from VA, but he was at the Pardini store and I think he has one. John Hollingshead used to like the 22/45 and recommended it during his clinic to new shooters along with the Buckmark. Those guys are animals. I think they could break 2600 with rubber band guns.

I use a Nelson conversion because of some great mentorship from Rich, its not as good as the European, but I'm more comfortable with it, but I'm starting the youngster on a Pardini. Nicer equipment makes things easier, but absolutely agree, you can't buy points. I'm only about 10% - 15% better with my conversion over the 22/45, but I can keep my scores up easier with it so I prefer it and it has feed issues.

Last edited by JayhawkNavy02; 08-29-2016 at 04:56 PM.
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  #17  
Old 07-23-2017, 07:42 PM
10thmountain 10thmountain is online now
 
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I was looking through my safe wondering what in the world am I going to do with my old Ruger Standard? Found it..22 matches! I hope Anniston will host one.
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