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  #1  
Old 01-14-2018, 12:41 PM
RC20 RC20 is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
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Default Querry on the 8mm VZ-24 Japan Issue?

I came across this in a discussion.

It seem an implausible purchase as the ammo was totally non common with any of the Japanese usage.

I know they had a weird take split on ammo and wild variations and a subject all its own.

The Caracano contract seems to be more plausible those bizarre (shipping rifles all the way to Japan) but a least what I saw was chambered in the 6.5 Jap.

The 8mm found would seem to be China originated but always what seems to be out of bounds can be in bounds.
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  #2  
Old 01-14-2018, 02:51 PM
bodydenny bodydenny is offline
 
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Youíre coming at this from a common sense perspective. Thatís not how imperial Japan always approached things. At one point in the war the Japanese made 3 different types of 7.7 ammo for two macine guns and a rifle. They also produced 32 caliber for private purchase pistols and (Iím pretty sure) 303,9mm Luger,and 8mm and 7mm pistol ammo. The VZís were for the Japanese navy and they were positively desperate for rifles.
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  #3  
Old 01-14-2018, 05:57 PM
RC20 RC20 is offline
 
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Just discussion, not arguing.

I get that but getting the guns in the first place looks like a problem on the timeline. That was all too close to the takeover of Czche Repulic and the entry into WWII and German did not have the shipping methods the Italians did.

I can see the Italians (who had an astonishing number of subs) and with spare production and they had the ocean going freighter subs to do it (as insane as it would be to ship rifles from Italy to Japan that way)

And in that case it looks like those were for the IJN and in 6.5 Jap (common caliber but different round from the Carcanao)

The VZ looks to have been allocated to the IJA.

There would still have to be sufficient ammo made for it let alone the distribution. Pistol not being main line combat weapons you might be able to make that various rounds (or capture) .

On the other hand massive numbers of arms would have been captured in China along with the ammunition.

A lot of reading about how the Germans used a huge amount of capture material in WWII as they were in deficit.

Not to mention the logistics insanity that had to entail.
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  #4  
Old 01-14-2018, 06:50 PM
talking warrior talking warrior is offline
 
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There is a lot of information (and speculation) out there on the Japanese Vz24's. This might be a good place to start:

http://forums.gunboards.com/showthre...highlight=VZ24

The most interesting thing is there seem to have been a number captured/confiscated by GI's in the Phillipnes that were unissued. Wish I had one, as I've got a proper sling.
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  #5  
Old 01-14-2018, 07:28 PM
jimthompson502002 jimthompson502002 is offline
 
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I've seen photos of Japanese submariners on "I" series boats at attention with Mausers, ostensibly VZ.24's.

However, the Japanese produced a lot of 7.92x57 rimless German format ammo for their versions of the aircraft guns, the MG.15 and MG.17, among others. They also used the Czech VZ.26 and VZ.30 machine guns in great numbers, and produced them, all in the original European chambering.



https://www.flickr.com/photos/156311...-m22Rmw-9bTCqq

(note: if you want to view these and enlarge, or navigate around and access details, just sign in with any Yahoo i.d. No spam, no boogey men, no big bad hacks or etc., etc.--it's photo sharing, the way it was always intended to be, but downloads are verboten.

To complicate matters even further, the Japanese used everything they captured, too. That Soviet Maxim 1910 that was in the CFM ca.1990's was captured from Naval Garrison personnel in the Philippines, for example, in the baseball stadium Manila, ca.1945, where it was using a dugout as a key position. There is both film and witness accounts of that fight, and I examined and photographed that very gun.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/156311...-A8dD97-bj2Sox


It was in the original 7.62x54R loading. All ideas how it got there may be speculation, but it definitely got there.

A lot of firearms "deals" were made for diplomatic or "make work" purposes, and the "Pact of Steel" Axis always tried to pretend they were becoming "unified". Common use of gear was sometimes publicized in ADLER as meaning a great deal more than it really did. The Type I rifles were contracted for initially in 1938, as production of the Arisaka 38 in that caliber was closing down, and the new, large submarines envisioned carrying amphibious forces generic and on board. They, too, seem to have been primarily a Navy project. Shipment to Japanese forces would probably have been before WW2, which began 9/1/1939. However, even after, Japan wasn't in the war until December of 1941, and the vessels of that nation would not have been subject to British action save for very specific purposes. Even after that, the Germans were KNOWN for shipping materials in the vessels of neutrals--Vichy France, Sweden, and so on.

The rifles were almost surely never "necessary". Probably the VZ's weren't, either.

The Japanese Naval Garrison forces (they had no "Marines" or anything like that, they were the Kaigun-tokubetsu-rikusen-tai...) weren't a priority and deteriorated even further as hostilities wore on. Tokoi said NOTHING so sophisticated was ordered for them, and their weapons were mostly hand-me-downs and leftovers.

It was for onboard parties that rifles had some relevance.

In the encapsulated world of vehicles and vessels, ammo interchange is far less important.

Last edited by jimthompson502002; 01-22-2018 at 04:47 PM. Reason: update
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  #6  
Old 01-14-2018, 07:36 PM
bodydenny bodydenny is offline
 
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Not at all meaning to argue. I had always assumed (I'm sure I read it somewhere) that the VZ was for the Navy. If it wasn't,then I know less than I thought (if that's possible!!). I'm guessing captured could be a possibility;there are accounts of prison guards using Lee-Enfields and I know I read one account of a rear echelon Japanese soldier murdering a Filipino infant with an M1917.
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  #7  
Old 01-15-2018, 09:36 AM
RC20 RC20 is offline
 
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Japanese were opportunistic if anything.

Considering just the vast number of arms they captured in China, Singapore/Burma, Thailand, Indonesia and Philippines..........

Rick I believe posted a picture of US troops burning piles of recaptured 1917s.

Its a wonder what they did with the mess they had and made themselves.
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  #8  
Old 01-15-2018, 09:54 AM
RC20 RC20 is offline
 
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This is the stuff rambling through my mind.

I have seen bits of that post, but its all he said, she said, they said.

In other words, what I see is a lot of conjecture, no documentation of any kind.

"likely it was removed from issue and then replaced"

Slings and buttock marks are not valid evidence (to me) of a rifle. Consistent and valid marks on a receiver that have documentation behind them yes.

There was a famous Luger issue of assembled spare parts. In the end, it was a complete fake.

Collectors paid $15,000 before it was put to rest.

Sept 1939 was the date of the invasion of Poland, and that is also in the contract date.

So how do you ship those guns other than sub? Which subs?
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  #9  
Old 01-15-2018, 10:11 AM
RC20 RC20 is offline
 
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Quote:
However, the Japanese produced a lot of 7.92x57 rimless German format ammo for their versions of the aircraft guns, the MG.15 and MG.17, among others. They also used the Czech VZ.26 and VZ.30 machine guns in great numbers, and produced them, all in the original European chambering.
I had missed that information or forgot it.

Certainly gives credence to the use of the Rifles with ammunition being made.

And another, why in the world would you introduce another caliber for pretty limited use ? (from what I can find it seems all aircraft defensive guns )

Any 30 caliber is going to be pretty close to any other 30 caliber (7.62 7.92 mm area) . Even the 303 despite it being a dated design and not working seemed to do just fine for the Brits over not one but two World wars and then some. Fed ok in machine guns and everything.

So a Judy has 7.7 firing forward and a 7.92 rearward. Huh?

A 50 Cal class forward or rearward, and a 30 cal the other way, ok, but...

As he rides off into the Rising Sunset shaking his head.
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  #10  
Old 01-15-2018, 10:32 AM
RC20 RC20 is offline
 
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Again it comes back to there looks to be a pretty valid trail with the 6.5 Arisaka chambered Carcano for Japanese Naval Forces and the one guy is pretty clear there were no Japanese Marine forces.

I too had a speculative gun but thought it had a more valid pedigree than the VZ.

It was a 1903A3 Remington receiver with a SC barrel with Australian Base Station (repair) markings on the barrel. It had been sportorized otherwise it would have been a real keeper.

From the condition of the receiver (new) and the barrel (also new) it looked like it was put together in Australia and then made its way back to US. As it was a 6 grove barrel you could see it would be of special interest.

Purely speculative, but based on some reasonable assumption that a barrel making its way back by itself would not seem likely.

You could even see an employee dong it and bringing it home himself.

Date was late 1944 and the need for repaired 1903A3s would have been minimal if at all.

But I fully understand its speculation and not proven.
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