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  #1  
Old 09-03-2014, 07:24 PM
normannewguy normannewguy is offline
 
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Default Cartridge & Headspace Specifications: .308 Win / 7.62 NATO

Ok, here are the specs again...

SAAMI .308 Winchester:
GO: 1.630 in.
NO-GO: 1.634 in.
FIELD: 1.638 in.


FN FAL:
GO: 1.6325 in. (FN & Brit/commonwealth. Canadian is 1.6315 in.)
NO-GO: 1.638 in.
FIELD: 1.640 in.


7.62 NATO (M14 US MILSPEC):
GO: 1.6355 in.
NO-GO: 1.638 in.
FIELD: 1.6445 in.


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Chamber and cartridge drawings...

1. .308 Winchester:
Direct link: http://s1052.photobucket.com/user/f6...tml?sort=3&o=2





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2. 7.62 NATO:
Direct link: http://s1052.photobucket.com/user/f6...tml?sort=3&o=3





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Both cartridges have the exact same external dimensions! The only difference between the two is usually the weight of the brass (generally due to thicker brass near base on NATO cartridge)...
- .308 Win SAAMI brass weighs in average between 155 - 165 grains.
- 7.62 NATO brass weighs in average between 175 - 188 grains.

Looking at the GO for SAAMI and NATO there is a .005 difference, which means there will not be a problem in using 7.62 NATO ammo in a .308 chamber.
Most US ammo companies who make NATO ammo (Winchester being one) produce to the minimum spec of 1.628 and hold it there, which allows it to be chambered in both.

The only time you run into a problem is overseas ammo companies who make ammo to NATO standards. They will let stuff go that headspaces at 1.633 to 1.635 which in a 7.62 NATO chamber is fine, but is .003 to .005 too large for a .308 Win chamber.

If you have a minimum chamber of 1.630, you can run into feeding problems with some NATO spec ammo but normally only overseas stuff, like PPU
.

Last edited by Big_Red; 12-27-2014 at 01:23 AM. Reason: Nit-picking / clarification
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  #2  
Old 09-10-2014, 11:01 PM
Big_Red Big_Red is offline
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All,
Worked with normannewguy to make his post a sticky...many thanks to him for providing this data!

Regards,
Rob
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Feedback Thread: http://forums.thecmp.org/showthread.php?t=137544
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  #3  
Old 12-20-2014, 09:03 PM
sapishka sapishka is offline
 
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the NATO case is thicker and much more so near the base ,so if you cut the 2 open down the middle the difference between the 2 is readily apparent .something that is rarely ever discussed about these two cartridges ,NATO brass is thicker brass .AND so .. the sentence posted IS the issue ..the stuff that headspaces at 1.635 and is too large for a 308 win chamber . lots of NATO ammo still available and still being used so best to use the correct ammunition in your rifle .


sapishka
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  #4  
Old 12-20-2014, 10:12 PM
normannewguy normannewguy is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sapishka View Post
the NATO case is thicker and much more so near the base ,so if you cut the 2 open down the middle the difference between the 2 is readily apparent .something that is rarely ever discussed about these two cartridges ,NATO brass is thicker brass .AND so .. the sentence posted IS the issue ..the stuff that headspaces at 1.635 and is too large for a 308 win chamber . lots of NATO ammo still available and still being used so best to use the correct ammunition in your rifle .


sapishka
Ok I guess you missed the part where I said NATO brass is heavier than 308 WIN commercial.
Also I think you missed the part where I said most US manufacturers hold NATO brass to min specs 1.628 and some overseas companies who make to NATO standards slighty larger 1.633 or so can have problems in 308 WIN chambers.
So I am not sure if you read the machinist drawings that were provided. Dimensionally they are the same, except like I said some overseas PPU being one making ammo that headspaces at 1.633.
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  #5  
Old 12-21-2014, 12:14 AM
sapishka sapishka is offline
 
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you said heavier ,I said thicker and internally dimensionally different ,I agree with your other statements ,no argument ,they actually make the point quite clearly ,NATO 7.62x51 abounds and is available from many countries as surplus ,not for 308 chambers due to headspace as you have pointed out .Again ,no argument ,I did not miss anything you had said ,however ,I do have my own information and thoughts to add to this ,which are correct .

sapishka
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  #6  
Old 12-21-2014, 08:28 AM
normannewguy normannewguy is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sapishka View Post
you said heavier ,I said thicker and internally dimensionally different ,I agree with your other statements ,no argument ,they actually make the point quite clearly ,NATO 7.62x51 abounds and is available from many countries as surplus ,not for 308 chambers due to headspace as you have pointed out .Again ,no argument ,I did not miss anything you had said ,however ,I do have my own information and thoughts to add to this ,which are correct .

sapishka
Ok the specification for NATO on headspace is 1.634 -.006. Which means that anything from 1.628 to 1.634 is acceptable. So like I said Winchester, Federal, Lake City and the like normally headspace at 1.628. So does Radway, German and the like. They will work in 308 WIN chambers no problem whatsoever. Now occasionally you will get stuff like PPU or Indian ammo that headspaces at 1.633. In a tight 308 WIN chamber yes you will have issues.
On NATO brass the webbing is thicker due to intended use in full auto weapons. Hence they are heavier. Does that make a difference in semi auto or bolt guns, no. Its heavier due to intended use in weapons that headspace all the way up to 1.6445. It has to work once and that's all the military asks of it and go bang and be extracted. Can you use 308 WIN in NATO chamber? Yes of course, but brass life is very short.
Please add your info would love to see it if there is any difference to what I have posted.
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  #7  
Old 12-22-2014, 03:11 PM
sapishka sapishka is offline
 
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Well its like those of us with the NATO chambered Garands, we have to measure the headspace right off upon receiving one of these fine Garands and mine spec'd out as new. However a lot of guys have had to find bolts that brought the headspace to the GO spec to 1.635 which is the as-new manufactured NATO SPEC chambering of these rifles. Match grade type A and B rifles are excluded as those readily spec out tighter chambers and can use 308 win cartridges with no headspace issues. Your findings are correct as I see them on specs and what works and where, so the differences are the headspacing you've covered. The shooter just needs to be aware "if possible" of which ammunition he or she is shooting in the rifle they are using. There is the whole talk about pressures to speak of which has been covered many times over and the cause of too many consternating arguments, so not going there, but looks solid here on the information provided .


sapishka

Last edited by Big_Red; 12-27-2014 at 01:38 AM. Reason: grammar
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  #8  
Old 12-22-2014, 04:21 PM
normannewguy normannewguy is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sapishka View Post
well its like us guys with the NATO chambered Garands ,we have to measure the headspace right off upon receiving one of these fine Garands ,mine speced out as new. however a lot of guys have had to find bolts that brought the headspace to the GO spec to 1.635 which is the as new manufactured NATO SPEC chambering of these rifles ,Match grade type A and B rifles excluded as those readily spec out tighter chambers and can use 308 win cartridges with no headspace issues .your findings are correct as I see them on specs and what works and where ,so the differences are the headspacing you've covered ,the shooter just needs to be aware "if possible" which ammunition he or she is shooting in the rifle they are using is correct for it .theres the whole talk about the pressures to speak of which has been covered many times over ,and the cause of too many consternating arguments ,so not going there ,but looks solid here on the information provided .


sapishka
Ok you missed it again, both 308 WIN and 7.62 NATO are the same period. The headspace specifications for the cartridges are SAMMI 1.627- 1.634, NATO 1.628-1.634. The only reason NATO went to the larger chamber was for battlefield reliability, (full auto weapons ,M14 M60, headspace does decrese under full auto fire) and the chambering issues with dirty weapons and ammunition. You can shoot 308 WIN in a NATO chamber no problem at all. If you reload tho only expect maybe 2 reloads out of it before it rips in half because of the lighter webbing, remember weight of brass or did we miss that also?
The US military spec for 7.62 NATO is 50,000 PSI, now SAMMI max for 308 WIN is 62,000 PSI. Now is any 308 WIN FMJ or Match ammo loaded to this spec, no. Oh and there is no machine gun ammo that has higher pressures, sorry its all M80 or M59 ball.
The only NATO round you might have to worry about for pressure is M118LR made prior to 2005 in air temps above 120 F as due to the powder and temps these became very powerful and damaged M14 in IRAQ.
So to all those people who thought they had to bring it out to headspace of 1.635, they were wrong. They didn't have to at all. If it headspaced at 1.633 they were fine for both 308 WIN and 7.62 NATO
BECAUSE THEY ARE THE SAME SIZE
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  #9  
Old 12-22-2014, 04:56 PM
raymeketa raymeketa is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by normannewguy View Post
. . .The only NATO round you might have to worry about for pressure is M118LR made prior to 2005 in air temps above 120 F as due to the powder and temps these became very powerful and damaged M14 in IRAQ. . . .
I've heard that same thing more than once but cannot come up with any hard evidence to support it. The first Gulf War took place in 90/91 and the Iraq War in early 2003.The hot M118LR was only loaded from 1995 to 1999. It was intended only for bolt guns, particularly the M24 and M40 snipers. I doubt if the average GI with an M14 would have had access to it. By the time ATK took over operation of the LCAAP in 2001, the load had been reduced to what we have today.

One of the major reasons for reducing the load was, I believe, the considerable investment in sights, especially the USMC Unertls. They were developed based on the trajectory of the old M118 Match and the hot M118LR was an unacceptable mis-match.

But, I'm always willing to learn. And I've changed my opinion on a lot of things.

JMHO

Ray
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  #10  
Old 12-22-2014, 05:49 PM
normannewguy normannewguy is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sapishka View Post
OK ,here we go ,even as far as I said I agreed with most all of what you posted...its not enough ,so lets ask the question " quote" BECAUSE THEY ARE THE SAME " UNQUOTE ok why then are you posting anything about headspace or chamber sizes or anything else whatsoever regarding these 2 cartridges ? why ? you keep stating they are exactly the same ,so if that's is true ,no need to give any other information or documentation or any other data ,you cannot have both ... you cannot have it both ways ,you say they are the exact same cartridges in every way ,I said the cases are indeed thicker internally ,but alas doesn't matter ,you said they are exactly the same ..so end of story ,this is the trouble when you just want to be able to be part of a discussion and someone decides they do not want you to be ,here it is right now .I missed this I did not read that ....fine .

sapishka
Read the machinist drawings of both cartridges if you know how to read blueprints. Externally they are the same they will both work in SAMMI and NATO chambers. If you have information that they are different please post it, so far I haven't seen anything refuting this other than I heard and gunshop stories. Its myths like this that scare people out of there wits going doing I need 308 WIN or 7.62 NATO. This was put here to stop that nonsense.

And I will wait for documents to prove me wrong, not I heard or I think

Oh on M118LR that was devopled in 1999 I believe and used an equvilent of RE15 for its charge but was found to be to temp sensitive in Iraq and was changed to IMR4064 for charge
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