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  #11  
Old 07-02-2012, 10:42 AM
paper paper is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: IL/WI Border
Posts: 180
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I have NEW gauges, and my gauges always read lower results than the gauges on the counter and the readings on the hang tags.. I've been a quality control inspector for 20 years and have been reading micrometers (and everything else) for 30 years and have inspected my gauges.. I've also discussed this with Leon numerous times..

Put gauges inside 1000's of barrels and they will wear.. Mine have little use and they're accurate, and I'm fully aware of how to use measuring equipment.

I've grabbed counter gauges at the store and compared them, and also had Leon compare his gauges (also used through countless guns) and mine will typically read .0005-.0007" lower than the worn gauges. I've seen one ME gauge actually read almost a full .001" more than my gauge.. I've checked my gauge with 5 different micrometers and dial calipers, and it's correct, as a new gauge should be.
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  #12  
Old 07-02-2012, 03:22 PM
oodnoodn oodnoodn is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: South GA
Posts: 1,344
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I've also observed the difference between new barrel gages & the worn CMP gages. Having spent 30 years in the calibration/metrology field, I tend to notice little things like this.

Since this work to our (the consumer's) advantage, I have no problem whatsoever with this.

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  #13  
Old 07-02-2012, 05:08 PM
ZvenoMan ZvenoMan is offline
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: AL
Posts: 3,718
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Yike!
So because sometimes a customer finds a lower ME or TE gauge than the hang tag we are to assume this is the result of the CMP armorers all using worn out gauges? Soooooo, of the 20 or so armorers, all the gauges are worn out? (While I have not asked I'm pretty sure they don't use a communal set attached to a hubcap with a string). Or is this because they use much tooling and equipment passed on from ex-military arsenals we think they do not buy new/replacement equipment when needed?
Gauges and tools wear, CMP's professionals I am sure are quite on top of it. I suspect the reason we hear so much about readings better than printed, or expected, is simply the CMP culture on exceeding the customers expectation, coupled with the process itself (a quick reading is generally going to result in a higher number, inserting the tool several times following a slight twist may find the "sweet spot" with the lowest reading).
For all we know they are told to add .5 to each reading! I suspect not, having measured ME/TE and recording on the hang tags on hundreds, if not more rifles in my times volunteering. In the sake of accuracy (I thought I knew how to use the appropriate gauges) I asked some FT armorers for a demo: drop it in, read, remove and twist, repeat, done.....
Let's not overthink this process and start some rumor that the tools are worn, it's just not that big of an issue! I'd hate Orest to have to get the guages replaced or tested simply because of some rumor based on flawed logic.
By the way, my comment "for all we know they are told to add .5..." was meant to be in jest, I have never been told such and don't want to be responsible for that rumor!
I just don't want to leave a false "fact for history" that it is widely known that CMP gauges in the 2010's were known to be worn out and thus accurate. Has anyone measured all the gauges? Has an armorer said the gauges are worn out? Or is this simply an assumption, based on the often repeated comment that CMP's ME/TE grading is generally conservative?
JH
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  #14  
Old 07-02-2012, 05:40 PM
paper paper is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: IL/WI Border
Posts: 180
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The information I've passed on is exactly what I've found for the last 5 years, and the dozen or so times I've been to the South Store, AND what the tags have read on the SG's I've purchased, AND on all of the Carbines I purchased, both in store and mail order..

I've NEVER found my, or anyone else's new gauges reading as large of measurements as what the tags read..

Typically, armorers have a favorite set of gauges and that's what they use over and over and over again..

If my findings bother you this much, feel free to prove me incorrect at 8am on July 6th of this year (as in this Friday).. I'll have my gauges, and I'm sure Orest would be happy to "loan" another set of gauges and you can test barrels until the cows come home.. You'll find that a barrel that is tagged as a "2" will be a 1.5, and it won't matter which armorer signed the inspection tag..

You're in Alabama.. Again, since this statement bothers you so much, feel free to show me the correct way to inspect a rifle..

And I'm FAR from the only person who's observed this in barrel measuring and hang tags..

I'm staying in Taladega the night before, and will be at CMP at or around 8am.. Look for the green Triumph Sprint ST in the parking lot.. Blue mesh jacket, red carbon fiber helmet, black mesh pants, drinking coffee and bsing with Leon..
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  #15  
Old 07-02-2012, 06:06 PM
ZvenoMan ZvenoMan is offline
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: AL
Posts: 3,718
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Whatever!
I'm sure your gauges will find barrels with readings better than the tags. I'm sure you will find also that some armorers use 1 digit (as in 1 or 2 or 3) while others guestimate the .5 and thus will mark the 1.5 when another armorer would say "it's above 1 so is a 2".
My only point is I do not think it is "known fact" that the CMP gauges are worn out, there are simply too many other reasons for CMP grading to consistently be better than expected. We are doing a disservice by stating such without facts. And a measurement today with my personal, or loaned gauge showing a "1.5" when the tag lists a "2" does not prove that "CMP ME/TE gauges are worn out". They do sell new gauges, what makes us think they don't use the same ones?
We all expect, based on history, CMP rifles to exceed expectations in many specific and commonly reported ways. But to link that to "worn out gauges" is simply not responsible. Especially given the numerous examples of CMP's "err on the side of the customer" operating ethic.
JH
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  #16  
Old 07-02-2012, 06:10 PM
paper paper is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: IL/WI Border
Posts: 180
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What do I have to gain by my statements?

Nothing.. And I know many who completely agree with me..

You see, I didn't jump on a website and say you were wrong in a statement, but you felt it necessary to come onto this subject and state I'm making a statement that's not responsible..

Again, the invitation stands.. I'll be there on Friday morning.. I have nothing to lose or gain by you proving me wrong. I'm just there to say Hi to Leon and pick out a couple FG rifles..
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  #17  
Old 07-02-2012, 06:46 PM
Garandimal Garandimal is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 480
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FWIW...

Every single Service Grade Garand I've purchased over the last Eighteen (18) months from the CMP have had bores that read 0.5 to 1.0 (0.0005 - 0.001) LESS than the "hang-tag" on my new Stone-Axe MW/TE Combo Garand Gauge.



GR
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  #18  
Old 07-02-2012, 07:44 PM
Tennboy Tennboy is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: East Tennessee
Posts: 2,653
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I should know better than to get into this, but......

1. Stuff, such as gauges, wears down, especially when used dozens of times daily.

2. I am told by South Store employees that some CMP graders grade more liberally than others, and on a consistent basis.

3. I have gauged CMP M1 muzzles myself with my near-new Duff and CMP gauges which have read as much as 1.0 lower than that reported on the store tag.

Draw your own conclusions, all I have presented are my own honestly stated observations.
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  #19  
Old 07-02-2012, 08:22 PM
parmel parmel is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Jasper, GA - RTR
Posts: 341
Default Fwiw

What is the downside in the current CMP "worn gauge" usage?
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  #20  
Old 07-02-2012, 08:57 PM
paper paper is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: IL/WI Border
Posts: 180
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The only one that I can think of would be people pass on a rifle that gauges 1.5 on ME, but is marked 2.5.

My only issue with it is that if the rifles were marked more accurately on sizes, people would be more aggressive with their FG rifle purchasing..
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