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  #11  
Old 07-14-2020, 02:39 PM
WindLogik WindLogik is offline
 
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I shot through several cases of N140 during the Sandyhook years because it was all I could get for that burn range. With the current pricing of powders, when compared to others it is a wash in terms of pricing. For 5.56, it was very similar to Varget, my favorite. I have no personal experience with it for M1A or M1, but I would think it would work well. If you look at it on a powder burn chart, it is very near the Varget rung.

I think this is a great forum to ask questions pertaining to 600 yards (mid-range) and farther. The standard CMP service rifle matches have been shot at 600 yards for many decades, and the CMP has added long range to their match offerings as well.

Last edited by WindLogik; 07-14-2020 at 02:41 PM.
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  #12  
Old 07-30-2020, 10:55 AM
USriflecal30 USriflecal30 is offline
 
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You are right about powder availability. just checking Brownells and Midway both have N140 and N135 in 8 lb jugs. They were out of the other powders I checked like Varget and H4895 (let alone trying to find stuff at stores). Considering they are in stock and within $10 (for 8lbs) of the other powders, I went ahead and ordered one each. LOL. be good choices for all .30-06 , 7.5x55, and .223 match loads. Midway had NO small rifle primers of any kind.
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  #13  
Old 07-31-2020, 07:38 PM
Gewehr43 Gewehr43 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WindLogik View Post
I shot through several cases of N140 during the Sandyhook years because it was all I could get for that burn range. With the current pricing of powders, when compared to others it is a wash in terms of pricing. For 5.56, it was very similar to Varget, my favorite. I have no personal experience with it for M1A or M1, but I would think it would work well. If you look at it on a powder burn chart, it is very near the Varget rung.

I think this is a great forum to ask questions pertaining to 600 yards (mid-range) and farther. The standard CMP service rifle matches have been shot at 600 yards for many decades, and the CMP has added long range to their match offerings as well.
Just my 2%........
The M1 hasn't been widely used as a Service Rifle since the 80's.
First the M14 took over and then the AR, which since the 90's- 99% of active shooters have been using.
For a decade (?) now the M1 has been used at 200yds, in the Garand matches.
Most Garand owners are either Collectors or casual shooters and so, honestly, have no need or experience shooting the M1 at LR (so 8-9-1000yds), or for that matter MR- 600yds.
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  #14  
Old 08-01-2020, 06:04 AM
milprileb milprileb is offline
 
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I have noted a Fear of iron sights the past decade ...shooters may go to 200 yds but going farther with the M1 Rifle is a bridge too far. Some of that is RX of glasses and easily cured, some of that is lack of ranges with distance beyond 200 yds but I think most of it is fear of failure.

The Black Rifle dominates Service Rifle shooting and those guys are now using scopes. While Service Rifle is now a scoped event, it should not be considered unfriendly to M1 and M14 shooters so I encourage them to go and shoot in those events. Shoot iron sights and be good with your performance and seek better scores each time you shoot.

You work harder with iron sights...no one said it was going to be easy . Didn't stop our military in WWII, Korea or Viet Nam ..where iron sights were used to great effect.
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  #15  
Old 08-01-2020, 08:46 AM
WindLogik WindLogik is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gewehr43 View Post
Just my 2%........
The M1 hasn't been widely used as a Service Rifle since the 80's.
First the M14 took over and then the AR, which since the 90's- 99% of active shooters have been using.
For a decade (?) now the M1 has been used at 200yds, in the Garand matches.
Most Garand owners are either Collectors or casual shooters and so, honestly, have no need or experience shooting the M1 at LR (so 8-9-1000yds), or for that matter MR- 600yds.
My comment was not specific to Garands. It was a response to this comment:

Quote:
Originally Posted by ceresco View Post
I say this because anyone into long range shooting would be unlikely to be asking such questions on this forum.
I don't think that shooting Garands in full distance XTC matches is all that productive, but I have done it several times and learned a lot each time. For that, I shot 168s and Varget powder. Similar to what the OP was asking about. The OP seems (or stated that) he is legitimately interested in shooting "long range." If this is the case, he should be encouraged to take his Garand to an XTC match, as most with a "long range" interest really enjoy that.

I don't really view the CMP as an organization to facilitate the collecting and shooting of vintage rifles. The Garand sales program has been a great way to get shooters out on the range, and it's a concept that works. Sell a neat old rifle to generate interest, shooter may purchase modern gear to develop into a marksman. My read is that the CMP's purpose is to develop marksmen in the citizenry. For rifle, this means something modern shot at the rifle's capable distances. By golly, the program works. If you find a DR, that person can take an M16 or M4, and be effective with it as a marksman and train leagues of others on the system.

When I think of the CMP, I think of the the service rifle and service pistol match programs (EIC) primarily and see the vintage matches as a nice way to enjoy vintage rifles as a hobby. Now, the CMP has added long range matches to the fold. By that, I mean long range matches that are very similar to the NRA's offerings (palma course with palma styled rifles).

I agree, Garands and M1as are largely obsolete. You don't see them on the line anymore for XTC matches...

Last edited by WindLogik; 08-01-2020 at 08:59 AM.
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  #16  
Old 08-01-2020, 10:53 AM
la Fiere la Fiere is offline
 
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In my experience the Garand is capable at a minimum out to mid-range. I've shot a few (not a lot) 600 yard matches with mine and have done ok. As mentioned it's not easy but the 1 MOA sight adjustment keeps things simple (the big decision is if it's a "one click" or a "two click" wind).


One of the local ranges (Sacramento) has monthly silhouette match that's open to military rifles firing from prone. It's a standard silhouette range with targets at 200 through 500 meters. With practice one can be quite effective with the Garand on that course. I haven't shot that match in a while but it was a lot of fun when I did.
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  #17  
Old 08-01-2020, 07:30 PM
Gewehr43 Gewehr43 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WindLogik View Post
My comment was not specific to Garands. It was a response to this comment:



I don't think that shooting Garands in full distance XTC matches is all that productive, but I have done it several times and learned a lot each time. For that, I shot 168s and Varget powder. Similar to what the OP was asking about. The OP seems (or stated that) he is legitimately interested in shooting "long range." If this is the case, he should be encouraged to take his Garand to an XTC match, as most with a "long range" interest really enjoy that.

I don't really view the CMP as an organization to facilitate the collecting and shooting of vintage rifles. The Garand sales program has been a great way to get shooters out on the range, and it's a concept that works. Sell a neat old rifle to generate interest, shooter may purchase modern gear to develop into a marksman. My read is that the CMP's purpose is to develop marksmen in the citizenry. For rifle, this means something modern shot at the rifle's capable distances. By golly, the program works. If you find a DR, that person can take an M16 or M4, and be effective with it as a marksman and train leagues of others on the system.

When I think of the CMP, I think of the the service rifle and service pistol match programs (EIC) primarily and see the vintage matches as a nice way to enjoy vintage rifles as a hobby. Now, the CMP has added long range matches to the fold. By that, I mean long range matches that are very similar to the NRA's offerings (palma course with palma styled rifles).

I agree, Garands and M1as are largely obsolete. You don't see them on the line anymore for XTC matches...
The OP was asking about the M1/M1A though.
To me, I follow the NRA definitions:
Short range is out to 300yds.
Mid-range is out to 600.
Long range is 8-9-1000yds.

I respectfully disagree about with your summation of the CMP, but that isn't germane to the OP's questions.

Op/Others:
Just IMHO................
The M1/M1A were shot very accurately XTC (out to 600yds) with irons for decades.
There is nothing wrong with that, if that is what you want to do.

But like any other rifle used in Competition, there are steps to wring out the accuracy "further out."
One is the ammo used.
If you are only shooting short range, I'd suggest the lighter bullets.
Just XTC..... the 168.
If you are truly shooting out 600+ yds..... use the 175 SMK.

As far as powder, I've only used the 4064/4985 and they work WELL.
I don't think you'd see much difference at all shooting VV powders.
Mainly because the shooter/rifle are the other parts to this game.
So then the increased price would bother me, but if that is all you have, go for it!

You'll learn far more about "all this stuff" by shooting then talking about it.
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Last edited by Gewehr43; 08-01-2020 at 07:35 PM.
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  #18  
Old 08-01-2020, 07:50 PM
WindLogik WindLogik is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gewehr43 View Post
The OP was asking about the M1/M1A though.
To me, I follow the NRA definitions:
Short range is out to 300yds.
Mid-range is out to 600.
Long range is 8-9-1000yds.
I also recognize these definitions. This is the reason why early in that post I used quotation marks with the phrase long range. I have found that most who do not shoot matches do not know those definitions and may believe that 300 yards is "long range." I assume that the OP is in this category.

Over the years, the folks I see that come to XTC matches, full distance, with Garands come back the following year with something modern that is more appropriate for marksmanship. I feel that shooting full distance matches with a Garand is very much more valuable than shooting a reduced vintage match at 200 yds. But, I also agree that as issued Garands are best suited to 200 yard matches.

Last edited by WindLogik; 08-01-2020 at 08:01 PM.
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  #19  
Old 08-01-2020, 08:13 PM
Gewehr43 Gewehr43 is offline
 
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".......Over the years, the folks I see that come to XTC matches, full distance, with Garands come back the following year with something modern that is more appropriate for marksmanship. I feel that shooting full distance matches with a Garand is very much more valuable than shooting a reduced vintage match at 200 yds. But, I also agree that as issued Garands are best suited to 200 yard matches......."

Without a doubt!
The issue with shooting a Match-conditioned M1 long range is several:
-compared to an AR, the AR is SO much easier to accurize.
-If you have the fundamentals down, an M1 can match an AR.
-Realizing your short comings in your fundamentals is pretty obvious at distance, AR or M1.
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  #20  
Old 08-01-2020, 08:23 PM
WindLogik WindLogik is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gewehr43 View Post
".......Over the years, the folks I see that come to XTC matches, full distance, with Garands come back the following year with something modern that is more appropriate for marksmanship. I feel that shooting full distance matches with a Garand is very much more valuable than shooting a reduced vintage match at 200 yds. But, I also agree that as issued Garands are best suited to 200 yard matches......."

Without a doubt!
The issue with shooting a Match-conditioned M1 long range is several:
-compared to an AR, the AR is SO much easier to accurize.
-If you have the fundamentals down, an M1 can match an AR.
-Realizing your short comings in your fundamentals is pretty obvious at distance, AR or M1.
Beyond an as issued rifle that's a good one, I don't think it's reasonable for most people to accurize or pay to accurize a garand. That, and to shoot a season with one would cost a small fortune in components. 30-06 with Garand powders is also inherently limited for accuracy.

I have never personally seen a high master score shot with a garand at full distance. I think it is a limiting platform given the options available today. ARs and modern prone rifles are incomparably better for marksmanship, IMHO.
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