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  #11  
Old 11-24-2017, 08:52 PM
pmclaine pmclaine is offline
 
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Originally Posted by rickgman View Post
When discussing the war with my Dad back in the mid 60's, he said that he felt that our nation was approaching the conflict incorrectly. He stated that the concept of a "limited war" was nonsense. He firmly believed that once the killing starts, the time for talking has ended and the proper response is to fight to win - and do it as fast as possible. To do otherwise only lengthens the conflict and results in a greater amount of casualties. Too bad LBJ and McNamara didn't have the same understanding.
Your father was a smart man.

War is the failure of diplomacy and thus diplomacy by other means.

To got to war with anything less than total war in mind is cruel.

Hit hard and without mercy so that the suffering of our own and theirs is short lived.

Im not saying you go in and take out non combatants in a campaign of terror but you focus on the enemy troops wherever they are, trying to minimize deaths of the innocent but realize that the only reason to war is that we have reached a point where there is an existential threat and if it is not theirs dying than it will be ours dying.

Its true that since WWII we have not fought a war to win at the level above the soldier.

The soldiers have fought magnificently but the leaders have lacked the ability to form a simple strategy than let the military apply the tactics to get there.

If there is any bigger example of this than the current debacle that has us involved in 17 years of war I dont know what it is.

The response to 9/11 was as just a cause as the events that got us in to WWII.

The strategy should have been simple and defined, in fact defined by those that perpetrated the heinous crime and bragged about it. They put the targets on themselves and clearly identified what our strategy needed to be.

Our government abandoning the total destruction of that clear defined enemy in order to claim a strategy of "Global War on Terror", as nebulous and unachievable a strategy as was ever concocted, is a crime and has me pining for the return of the draft so that we can have a greater population than the 1% of 1% sacrificing and putting skin in the game.

Only a brave few currently get tasked again and again to fight our present war while the rest of the population only looks upon their sacrifice as a disturbing 30 second piece on the 6 oclock news.

If every house in America spent Thanksgiving with an empty seat at the table wondering about a loved one fighting in Afghanistan than that war would have been tidily wrapped up back about 2003 and enemies like AlQueda would have been taught a lesson that they would not be soon acting in a manner to have us return and teach them again.

Last edited by pmclaine; 11-24-2017 at 08:58 PM.
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  #12  
Old 11-24-2017, 10:11 PM
GGaskill GGaskill is offline
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The discredited secular creed of Marxism-Leninism has survived in only a few dictatorships, including China, North Korea and Vietnam.

And in the colleges and universities of the world. I'm not sure that any of the above countries really live Marxism/Leninism any more. In both China and Vietnam, it is all about keeping the Party in power, not the "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need" Marxian maxim. And North Korea is certainly not about that.

And it wouldn't surprise me in the least if the US were the greatest value trading partner with Vietnam. Another WW II replay.
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  #13  
Old 11-24-2017, 10:49 PM
pmclaine pmclaine is offline
 
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Originally Posted by GGaskill View Post
The discredited secular creed of Marxism-Leninism has survived in only a few dictatorships, including China, North Korea and Vietnam.

And in the colleges and universities of the world. I'm not sure that any of the above countries really live Marxism/Leninism any more. In both China and Vietnam, it is all about keeping the Party in power, not the "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need" Marxian maxim. And North Korea is certainly not about that.

And it wouldn't surprise me in the least if the US were the greatest value trading partner with Vietnam. Another WW II replay.
Yep ask Venezuela where are those with the ability to give to those with need.

Seems like once again Marxism has been proved a failing system.

Only times it has worked is in limited populations, very ********geneous (The censor wont let my word be used for a really stupid reason so think what they do to milk) in culture and for a limited time until the need passes.

Perhaps this is why Cuba is hanging on as well NK.

Everywhere else it has morphed into a Capitalist oligarchy as stated with intent to keep the Party viable.

You are right that Cuba and NK are just cults of personality more so than Marxist political systems.
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  #14  
Old 11-25-2017, 12:33 AM
bandhunter31 bandhunter31 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pmclaine View Post
Your father was a smart man.

War is the failure of diplomacy and thus diplomacy by other means.

To got to war with anything less than total war in mind is cruel.

Hit hard and without mercy so that the suffering of our own and theirs is short lived.

Im not saying you go in and take out non combatants in a campaign of terror but you focus on the enemy troops wherever they are, trying to minimize deaths of the innocent but realize that the only reason to war is that we have reached a point where there is an existential threat and if it is not theirs dying than it will be ours dying.

Its true that since WWII we have not fought a war to win at the level above the soldier.

The soldiers have fought magnificently but the leaders have lacked the ability to form a simple strategy than let the military apply the tactics to get there.

If there is any bigger example of this than the current debacle that has us involved in 17 years of war I dont know what it is.

The response to 9/11 was as just a cause as the events that got us in to WWII.

The strategy should have been simple and defined, in fact defined by those that perpetrated the heinous crime and bragged about it. They put the targets on themselves and clearly identified what our strategy needed to be.

Our government abandoning the total destruction of that clear defined enemy in order to claim a strategy of "Global War on Terror", as nebulous and unachievable a strategy as was ever concocted, is a crime and has me pining for the return of the draft so that we can have a greater population than the 1% of 1% sacrificing and putting skin in the game.

Only a brave few currently get tasked again and again to fight our present war while the rest of the population only looks upon their sacrifice as a disturbing 30 second piece on the 6 oclock news.

If every house in America spent Thanksgiving with an empty seat at the table wondering about a loved one fighting in Afghanistan than that war would have been tidily wrapped up back about 2003 and enemies like AlQueda would have been taught a lesson that they would not be soon acting in a manner to have us return and teach them again.
I Agree!
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  #15  
Old 11-25-2017, 01:13 AM
1stgarand 1stgarand is offline
 
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"Our government abandoning the total destruction of that clear defined enemy in order to claim a strategy of "Global War on Terror", as nebulous and unachievable a strategy as was ever concocted, is a crime and has me pining for the return of the draft so that we can have a greater population than the 1% of 1% sacrificing and putting skin in the game."

I also agree! Only problem is the Californification judges would not let it happen. God help our soldiers and vets...our government officials won't! Delete this if I am out of line.
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  #16  
Old 11-25-2017, 07:45 AM
pmclaine pmclaine is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1stgarand View Post
"Our government abandoning the total destruction of that clear defined enemy in order to claim a strategy of "Global War on Terror", as nebulous and unachievable a strategy as was ever concocted, is a crime and has me pining for the return of the draft so that we can have a greater population than the 1% of 1% sacrificing and putting skin in the game."

I also agree! Only problem is the Californification judges would not let it happen. God help our soldiers and vets...our government officials won't! Delete this if I am out of line.

I realize a drafted force would also degrade in a lot of ways what is a superb motivated military.

As a culture we no longer have a base discipline capable of being drafted and being useful to the military.

Reality is probably more problems than it solves but still I think something needs to be done to be holding our politicians accountable to end conflict, Otherwise it just becomes a big slush fund of contracts and corruption.
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  #17  
Old 11-27-2017, 01:37 AM
1stgarand 1stgarand is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pmclaine View Post
I realize a drafted force would also degrade in a lot of ways what is a superb motivated military.

As a culture we no longer have a base discipline capable of being drafted and being useful to the military.

Reality is probably more problems than it solves but still I think something needs to be done to be holding our politicians accountable to end conflict, Otherwise it just becomes a big slush fund of contracts and corruption.
Sad, but Soooooooo true!
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  #18  
Old 11-27-2017, 11:40 AM
DaveHH DaveHH is offline
 
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I was drafted in 9AUG65 5th Inf Div until 29MAY66 then over to II Corps for a year and with all my arms and legs came home and out. 22 1/2 months total for Uncle Sam, the next five and the following 45 were all on me. You never really are discharged, you just move on with your life.

A draftee army is easy to make judgements about, but when I was in, all of the motivated and talented people were US soldiers. The RA buddy system guys from Montana and beyond were a huge disappointment for us US types. We usually made a commitment to give it all we had, the RAs typically whined and quit. The lifers were really a sad bunch. The vets from WW2 and Korea were studs, they were just old studs. The young lifers were sad sacks. One of the reasons I wanted out so badly was not the Army, it was the dimbulbs who decided to make a career out of it and then retired in place. It was a deadly serious game that people should have taken seriously but didn't. It had traditions, rules, protocols that made it great. To watch lifers not do these things correctly made me sick. I was tired of people taking a burst of six and then stop being a soldier when the reenlistment money was gone.

Would a draftee army work today? Lenin invented political correctness and a full eight year shot of it has made generations into chumps, people who will call the police over a misbehaved cat. And worse, nobody thinks that that is wrong. It will eventually come to a draftee army again because this war on terror will never be over. It is the new normal which is the way Lenin would do it, "Let's all stick together and flush out anyone who dissents."
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  #19  
Old 11-27-2017, 11:52 AM
ACampComLegacy ACampComLegacy is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pmclaine View Post
I realize a drafted force would also degrade in a lot of ways what is a superb motivated military.

As a culture we no longer have a base discipline capable of being drafted and being useful to the military.

Reality is probably more problems than it solves but still I think something needs to be done to be holding our politicians accountable to end conflict,
Otherwise it just becomes a big slush fund of contracts and corruption.
I think you've said more right there than most know, or will admit.
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  #20  
Old 11-27-2017, 03:52 PM
creeks creeks is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveHH View Post
The lifers were really a sad bunch... One of the reasons I wanted out so badly was not the Army, it was the dimbulbs who decided to make a career out of it and then retired in place...It had traditions, rules, protocols that made it great. To watch lifers not do these things correctly made me sick. I was tired of people taking a burst of six and then stop being a soldier when the reenlistment money was gone."
I was drafted March 1968 and ended up with MOS 11B20 Light Weapons Infantry. I will grant you there were some flake lifers, but I did not see the picture you paint. In my MOS I had great respect for many of the lifers I worked with. For the most part they were intelligent and professional. I had respect for their judgment.

Last edited by creeks; 11-27-2017 at 03:56 PM.
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