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Old 11-03-2019, 10:43 AM
.22shooter .22shooter is offline
 
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Default new powder - winchester staball "temp insensitive"

Winchester has released a ball powder they claim to be temperature insensitive. Looks like it is formulated for heavy bullets and long barrels. It is priced reasonably at 185 for a keg. Hodgdon already has load data published for it.

Who is going to be the brave one and try it first?

Bill
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Old 11-03-2019, 11:59 AM
Louisxllx Louisxllx is offline
 
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Not me. I've heard those claims before. IMR 4895, 4064 and 4350 are good enough for me.
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Old 11-03-2019, 12:02 PM
rcolarco rcolarco is offline
 
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Originally Posted by .22shooter View Post
Winchester has released a ball powder they claim to be temperature insensitive. Looks like it is formulated for heavy bullets and long barrels. It is priced reasonably at 185 for a keg. Hodgdon already has load data published for it.

Who is going to be the brave one and try it first?

Bill
Every time I see a "new powder," I have to ask what's wrong with the powders we have and what problem this new powder will solve.

I don't believe in temperature sensitivity being a real issue. I use my handloads in every climate from sea level and 90+ degrees to 12,000 feet and minus 20. I have yet to detect a problem.
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Old 11-03-2019, 12:03 PM
rcolarco rcolarco is offline
 
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Not me. I've heard those claims before. IMR 4895, 4064 and 4350 are good enough for me.
That covers about 95% of all rifle reloading.
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Old 11-03-2019, 03:04 PM
.22shooter .22shooter is offline
 
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I just wonder if their claims will actually hold up in the field.

If the burn rate was in the 4895 to 4064 it would be a big hit at that targets many progressive press users that want the stability of stick powder but the metering of ball.

Bill

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Old 11-03-2019, 05:40 PM
cranehunter cranehunter is offline
 
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Keep trying to fix problems that aren’t there. Like all of the ridiculous super short magnums.
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Old 11-03-2019, 06:29 PM
Gewehr43 Gewehr43 is offline
 
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Originally Posted by .22shooter View Post
I just wonder if their claims will actually hold up in the field.

If the burn rate was in the 4895 to 4064 it would be a big hit at that targets many progressive press users that want the stability of stick powder but the metering of ball.

Bill

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I think it's really marketed towards the 6-6.5mm crowd...….thus the name "Staball 6.5" powder.
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Last edited by Gewehr43; 11-03-2019 at 09:07 PM.
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Old 11-03-2019, 06:32 PM
Gewehr43 Gewehr43 is offline
 
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Originally Posted by rcolarco View Post
Every time I see a "new powder," I have to ask what's wrong with the powders we have and what problem this new powder will solve.

I don't believe in temperature sensitivity being a real issue. I use my handloads in every climate from sea level and 90+ degrees to 12,000 feet and minus 20. I have yet to detect a problem.
Temp sensitivity is real, you just don't shoot in conditions to see it.
Also you don't use a chrono (correct?) and so won't detect it regardless.

That said, yes sometimes marketing isn't up to real results..... we will see.
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Old 11-04-2019, 08:42 AM
milprileb milprileb is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Gewehr43 View Post
Temp sensitivity is real, you just don't shoot in conditions to see it.
Also you don't use a chrono (correct?) and so won't detect it regardless.

That said, yes sometimes marketing isn't up to real results..... we will see.
It is real but there are "windows" where its irrelevant and where its got to be anticipated. IE: you shoot 100 to 300 yds, won't matter if you are shooting NRA bullseye targets with big scoring rings...patterns not tight shot groups still get you the scores. Do load development with any number of standard powders and find the sweet accuracy node for a given bullet and go shoot 100/300 with bliss.

Move to 800 /1000 yds and you don't want a "pattern", you want shot groups for accuracy and temp variations with powder will effect your performance. I use Win 760, RL 15, RL17, H4895, IMR 4350, H4350, Varget for 130 gr bullets in my 6.5 Creedmoor Rifle with 26" barrel. All these powders will show elevation differences when the temp goes from 37F at 0800 to 55F by 1200 (as was the case on Rg 4 Quantico yesterday). Since I know the dope, the notorious temp sensitive (via internet fame ) RL15 with 130 gr BTHP did print higher as temps increased. Not a issue, clearly anticipated and I merely dialed down elevation (using established dope in my book) accordingly ...glanced at my Smart phone..saw the temp and knew when to put the dope needed for that temp range into my scope. Know your rifle, know your load and temp sensitivity is not a issue. That includes Win 760 which is a ball powder and is thought to be problematic due to temp sensitivity.

I try for highest case volume of any powder, careful measuring ..that is weighing each charge, not tossing it out of a powder measure...and doing thorough case prep of brass. I weigh my bullets and cull them, I weigh my cases and cull them. All loads in a 50 rd box have bullets that weigh same and cases that have weight variances of no more than .3 grain. Cutting bullet and case variances down gives me more consistent performance regardless of temp or powder used.

With controls to limit variances in hand loads and knowing what your load does in any given temp window....most powders discussed in this tread will perform just fine and accuracy will follow.

Some powders don't perform worth a hoot regardless of temp or how careful you reload. CFE 223 , in my opinion, is one such example. Its limit is 600 yds and beyond that , its a failure in 556. Books say you can use it in 308....no thanks, I won't waste my time or barrel life .

IT is true, some powders are more temp sensitive but that does not mean you can't hand load using them and get great accuracy at longer ranges in all temps. IT is also true, some powders are a PITA and perform problematically ,no matter what load you develop with them in any weather.

Many are of opinion Varget is the end all answer and if you got the loads that hold well in any weather, you've done your homework and drive on. That works when Varget is always around but years ago, during Hope&Change government, we had powder droughts of long duration and Varget got extinct. Faced with no Varget, I had to change my loads to using powders I could find , thus over those 8 years ..I used powders like Win 650, RL 15 that were of no interest due to "temp sensitivity" and I never suffered using them...did my load development and off to the races I went. When H4350 became the Niche Powder for 6.5 Creedmoor and tough to find, so what?....I could get IMR 4350 easily (and at $5 cheaper per #) and it gave stunning performance with high case volume in 6.5 Creedmoor at 1000 yds.

Take a gander at this link, scroll to 130 gr bullet loads: If temp sensitivity was so huge an issue, some of those powders listed would not be tested and shown ! Now which powder is best with a given bullet is a matter of your testing , your rifle and your follow through.

https://sierrabulletsblog.com/2017/0...oor-load-data/

Ain't a dang thing wrong with any of those powders and every one of them will push to 2700 FPS which is perfectly good enuff for 1000 yds. Few of you need to push to 2800 or 2900 but much maligned Win 760 will get you there !

Last shot: Dump your charge from a powder measure....and not weigh charges precisely, how in bloody hell can you blame a powder for flyers and accuracy variances at 600 to 1000 yds ? The operator, not temperature is root cause for inaccuracy. It cost the same to build a half assed hand load as a high performing hand load, so decide what kind of hand loader you want to be and enjoy fruits of that.

Last edited by milprileb; 11-04-2019 at 09:04 AM.
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  #10  
Old 11-04-2019, 09:25 AM
Gewehr43 Gewehr43 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by milprileb View Post
It is real but there are "windows" where its irrelevant and where its got to be anticipated. IE: you shoot 100 to 300 yds, won't matter if you are shooting NRA bullseye targets with big scoring rings...patterns not tight shot groups still get you the scores. Do load development with any number of standard powders and find the sweet accuracy node for a given bullet and go shoot 100/300 with bliss.

Move to 800 /1000 yds and you don't want a "pattern", you want shot groups for accuracy and temp variations with powder will effect your performance. I use Win 760, RL 15, RL17, H4895, IMR 4350, H4350, Varget for 130 gr bullets in my 6.5 Creedmoor Rifle with 26" barrel. All these powders will show elevation differences when the temp goes from 37F at 0800 to 55F by 1200 (as was the case on Rg 4 Quantico yesterday). Since I know the dope, the notorious temp sensitive (via internet fame ) RL15 with 130 gr BTHP did print higher as temps increased. Not a issue, clearly anticipated and I merely dialed down elevation (using established dope in my book) accordingly ...glanced at my Smart phone..saw the temp and knew when to put the dope needed for that temp range into my scope. Know your rifle, know your load and temp sensitivity is not a issue. That includes Win 760 which is a ball powder and is thought to be problematic due to temp sensitivity.

I try for highest case volume of any powder, careful measuring ..that is weighing each charge, not tossing it out of a powder measure...and doing thorough case prep of brass. I weigh my bullets and cull them, I weigh my cases and cull them. All loads in a 50 rd box have bullets that weigh same and cases that have weight variances of no more than .3 grain. Cutting bullet and case variances down gives me more consistent performance regardless of temp or powder used.

With controls to limit variances in hand loads and knowing what your load does in any given temp window....most powders discussed in this tread will perform just fine and accuracy will follow.

Some powders don't perform worth a hoot regardless of temp or how careful you reload. CFE 223 , in my opinion, is one such example. Its limit is 600 yds and beyond that , its a failure in 556. Books say you can use it in 308....no thanks, I won't waste my time or barrel life .

IT is true, some powders are more temp sensitive but that does not mean you can't hand load using them and get great accuracy at longer ranges in all temps. IT is also true, some powders are a PITA and perform problematically ,no matter what load you develop with them in any weather.

Many are of opinion Varget is the end all answer and if you got the loads that hold well in any weather, you've done your homework and drive on. That works when Varget is always around but years ago, during Hope&Change government, we had powder droughts of long duration and Varget got extinct. Faced with no Varget, I had to change my loads to using powders I could find , thus over those 8 years ..I used powders like Win 650, RL 15 that were of no interest due to "temp sensitivity" and I never suffered using them...did my load development and off to the races I went. When H4350 became the Niche Powder for 6.5 Creedmoor and tough to find, so what?....I could get IMR 4350 easily (and at $5 cheaper per #) and it gave stunning performance with high case volume in 6.5 Creedmoor at 1000 yds.

Take a gander at this link, scroll to 130 gr bullet loads: If temp sensitivity was so huge an issue, some of those powders listed would not be tested and shown ! Now which powder is best with a given bullet is a matter of your testing , your rifle and your follow through.

https://sierrabulletsblog.com/2017/0...oor-load-data/

Ain't a dang thing wrong with any of those powders and every one of them will push to 2700 FPS which is perfectly good enuff for 1000 yds. Few of you need to push to 2800 or 2900 but much maligned Win 760 will get you there !

Last shot: Dump your charge from a powder measure....and not weigh charges precisely, how in bloody hell can you blame a powder for flyers and accuracy variances at 600 to 1000 yds ? The operator, not temperature is root cause for inaccuracy. It cost the same to build a half assed hand load as a high performing hand load, so decide what kind of hand loader you want to be and enjoy fruits of that.
Yes, fair enough.
I simply summarized all that for him by saying he doesn't shoot in "conditions to see it....." meaning, for example, the LR aspect.

$%^&*…… pick a powder and be done with this, man!
There's a reason if you talk to good shooters and realize there are a few (like 1-3) powders that end up being a good combo with the caliber and rifle.
Figure it out and shoot! Not spend your time experimenting...……and reinventing the wheel.

Yes, all powders show some temp variation but why not pick the one with the lowest that gives you good accuracy? Just eliminate the variable as best you can and be done with it?


You kinda answered your own comment about reloading manuals. They aren't LR manuals, they are manuals listing the safe loads they found with a variety of powders. Just because a powder is listed, doesn't mean it's the "best." Some rifles, with their design, shoot better with some powders (think port pressures for example), so it's not just achieving a certain velocity. You also mentioned case volume/powder fill...….if you look at the reloading manuals, you can screen a lot of the powders out using that criteria, so really the list gets a lot shorter. You'll also notice only some manuals list what they found to be the most accurate. If you had a LR manual from the top shooters, the list would probably be a short one.
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Last edited by Gewehr43; 11-04-2019 at 09:39 AM.
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