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Old 07-03-2012, 09:21 PM
ZvenoMan ZvenoMan is online now
Join Date: May 2011
Location: AL
Posts: 3,887

Paper, lighten up!
A comparison of tags versus Friday's measurements using your tool, the stores tools or whatever may be entertaining, but it has no bearing on your conclusion that the CMP tools are worn in the armory, which is a different facility entirely. I have seen many armorers measure and mark tags, as well as doing so myself when working as a volunteer. I have seen much variation in technique. That is not a complaint or a criticism, it's simply an observation. As others have said, some armorers are particular with this detail, others are not. Finally, the tools are marked in whole numbers, but some armorers guestimate the ".5" while others use only whole numbers. That alone will account for much of the "I gauged a 1.5 but the tag said 2" issues. These, along with standard tooling variances are the actual reasons I have personally observed that cause the tags to often reflect higher than actual, and rarely reflect lower than actual readings. I have seen on many forums (but do not know it to be a fact as I have not measured) that some brands of ME/TE gauges are known to be high, or low, so I'm sure that will also account for variances.
If you have seen some worn CMP gauges in use in the armory, or have knowledge of such, I may change my opinion, until then I believe it is not professional to state that CMP uses worn ME/TE gauges without something else to back such a conclusion. Especially when there are so many other reasons to explain these variances.
Assuming CMP continues operation as in the past, we will most likely continue to see ME/TE readings that benefit the purchaser, but for the many reasons I and others have listed. As it should be with CMP's operating philosophy. Do we really want them to start inspecting the ME/TE gauges and spending additional time processing the rifles in order to ensure a 99.99% accurate ME/TE reading because of an unsubstantiated rumor, especially when the end result is always n the favor of us, the customers?

The armorers use many expensive, specialized and quality tools and gauges and treat and store them just like any other professional organization. Given the additional fact that they stock new ME/TE gauges for sale, why would we think they would continue to use a worn out $30 gauge.
I have nothing to prove, I'm sure you measure ME/TE quite adequately. I simply think there are many reasons why ME/TE readings vary, and worn tools is simply far down the list. If you have information to the contrary, please share. I simply wish to perpetuate accurate information, not rumors.
John H
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Old 07-04-2012, 02:38 AM
paper paper is offline
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: IL/WI Border
Posts: 180

See the smile at the end of my statement??

The lightening up that needs to be done isn't me..

I (and all others) are only stating what we've found over and over again.. I don't use the armorer's measurements for purchase. I use my own..

I'll be a the South Store on Friday, again, using my own..
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Old 07-04-2012, 10:24 AM
Quicksilver Quicksilver is offline
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: NW Georgia
Posts: 1,268

Originally Posted by zvenoman View Post
i beg to differ regarding the cmp armorers using worn gauges. Armorers measure the te/me in order to grade the rifles, and as a higher number generally denotes a lower grade, will err on the side of caution. A bit of grease, not inserting the gauge 2-3 times with a small twist will all cause differing readings. But the end result is of no real difference on most of the non-collector grades. More importantly, while i suspect most tools wear over time/use, i thunk the amount of wear on a tool grade steel me or te gauge is much less of a factor than user technique, temperature variations or most importantly, differences from tool to tool/brand.
We all know cmp grading is what, 99.999% generous. I suspect there is not much pressure on the armorers to spend more time on te/me to get a lower number.
Even if we assume the cmp gauges are 100% accurate and each measurement is qc checked, temperature stabilized and 99.9% scientifically accurate, then cmp would be flooded with complaints like "my rifle gauges .5 worse, i need a new barrel..." because of someones borrowed, incorrect or damaged gauge or "calibrated bullet".

I'd suspect standard cmp "err on the side of the customer" standard operating procedure over worn gauges.
what he said....:gs:

"If you get to thinkin' you're a person of some influence, try orderin' somebody else's dog around."
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