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  #11  
Old 04-22-2019, 10:30 PM
tazaroo tazaroo is offline
 
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I'm a 01 FFL so here is the skinny. The serialized part, ie the frame/receiver is the firearm and not the slide. This is like having a GM or a HRA upper on a Colt M16 lower because in the end the rifle is still a Colt. If it doesn't need a 01/03 license to acquire/sell or a background check to buy it's not a firearm.................unless it's an antique. Hope I didn't miss any points. A Colt M1911A1 with an Ithica/RemRand/USS slide is still logged as a Colt in the acquisition and disposition books.

Last edited by tazaroo; 04-22-2019 at 10:32 PM.
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  #12  
Old 04-22-2019, 11:31 PM
weimar_police weimar_police is offline
 
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You are correct (and I was a 01 for a couple years and a 03 the last 14 yrs) - however, this is where it can get confusing for many folks.

A military luger has a serial number on the front of the frame and on the LEFT of the receiver. So, some folks think the upper is controlled. Just an FYI that its not always easy for folks.

And BTW, I answered the OPs question the first time I answered. Both from a CMP point of view and as I said above, but before .

Ed
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  #13  
Old 04-23-2019, 06:20 AM
ncreptile ncreptile is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by i1afli View Post
I have yet to see anyone answer the OPís question as to how the CMP labels them. Surely someone that has received one of the many mixmasters can confirm that it was labeled according to the frame.

Iíve bought two mixmasters at local FFLs that were mis-labeled as Colts by the FFLs...a Colt slide on a US&S frame and a Colt slide on an early Springfield frame. Neither FFL was interested in my opinion on how they should be identified.
The wifes 1911 came from the CMP with a tag on it saying COLT/COLT. So I'm guessing this is how it's labeled.

I'm sure most FFLs are too lazy to research serial number font to find out what the frame is so they'll either go off that tag or they will just use the slide markings.(which would be wrong)
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  #14  
Old 04-23-2019, 07:26 AM
RHScott RHScott is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ncreptile View Post

I'm sure most FFLs are too lazy to research serial number font to find out what the frame is so they'll either go off that tag or they will just use the slide markings.(which would be wrong)
^ I tend to agree.
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  #15  
Old 04-23-2019, 10:01 AM
tazaroo tazaroo is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ncreptile View Post
The wifes 1911 came from the CMP with a tag on it saying COLT/COLT. So I'm guessing this is how it's labeled.

I'm sure most FFLs are too lazy to research serial number font to find out what the frame is so they'll either go off that tag or they will just use the slide markings.(which would be wrong)
Lazy FFL's will get loved tenderly by the BATFE during an audit of their A&D books.
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  #16  
Old 04-23-2019, 11:48 AM
ZvenoMan ZvenoMan is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ncreptile View Post
I'm sure most FFLs are too lazy to research serial number font to find out what the frame is so they'll either go off that tag or they will just use the slide markings.(which would be wrong)
I don't know that I'd call it lazy. FFLs don't take a test or otherwise have any specialized knowledge other than the forms and documents required. Some specialize in shotguns, others new manufacturer, whatever.
Many firearms have some characteristics that would be confusing to many.
1911 Manufacturers are clearly an oddity, Mosin Nagant manufacturers as well as "year built" are just as non-standard.

Seriously, while I may know the answer, if an FFL sees Ithaca on the slide and doesn't check the serial number I don't think that makes him lazy or stupid.
I certainly didn't know the difference until I did, and expect everyone reading this has the same story.
JH
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  #17  
Old 04-23-2019, 01:05 PM
BobJ50 BobJ50 is offline
 
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So with a BATFE audit, assume you have a frame number that the extremely diligent ATF agent checks against his "Master List of assigned numbers," [because he is very anal about things] and determines that it is a Remington Rand # but you logged it as a Colt because that is what the slide is. You never had any hang tag or anything to show the specific maker [based on the serial #], but were trying to be diligent and wrote "Serial #XXXXXX, Manuf. Colt," when it is actually a RR. How's that going to work for you?
I know, hypothetical, but some agents can be very...diligent.
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  #18  
Old 04-23-2019, 02:31 PM
ZvenoMan ZvenoMan is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobJ50 View Post
So with a BATFE audit, assume you have a frame number that the extremely diligent ATF agent checks against his "Master List of assigned numbers," [because he is very anal about things] and determines that it is a Remington Rand # but you logged it as a Colt because that is what the slide is. You never had any hang tag or anything to show the specific maker [based on the serial #], but were trying to be diligent and wrote "Serial #XXXXXX, Manuf. Colt," when it is actually a RR. How's that going to work for you?
I know, hypothetical, but some agents can be very...diligent.
If directed at me, how do you think it will go?
Do you know any ATF auditors, or agents?
I do, the ones I know are regular people who will understand the difference between a crime, an unacceptable error and a training opportunity. Some I know probably wouldnít know, because, crazy idea, they donít know everything about every firearm, tobacco and explosive item.
I strongly suggest following all laws and especially BATFE related ones, as many on the forum know.
The totality of the audit, associated conversation, and purpose of the audit will clearly affect the outcome.
Jh
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  #19  
Old 04-23-2019, 02:46 PM
BobJ50 BobJ50 is offline
 
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Just a post with my comments. Perhaps I should have given space so you weren't feeling that is was directed at you?
Since over the past 50 years, I had a FFL, Class 3 [#2129-which was a long time ago], an Import-Export license, and now just a C&R, I do actually know a little about Booking, Audits and Agents. In fact, even investigations into criminal behavior. I also know that some agents can be more than helpful and will use some of us as resources.
I never claimed [in my long career] to know everything. I also know that over the years the interpretation of the laws has, can and will change. The requirements for identifying and logging firearms is relatively simple; if in doubt, ask.
My initial post was a hypothetical. The vast majority of agents and police officers are not only intelligent, but also respectful of our rights.
As in every profession, there are people who have an agenda.
I am pleased to hear that you know the good guys.
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  #20  
Old 04-23-2019, 04:10 PM
horticattleman horticattleman is offline
 
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I too have an FFL, a couple actually. During all of the audits that I have ever had, never once did an inspector even balk at a 1911 and inquire about itís manufacturer. If I had colt in the MFG box, he just moved on to the serial number and wanted confirmation that it was in inventory, if and only if it wasnít logged as a disposition. 99% of inspectors wouldnít even know where to look to determine manufacturer. Sure there is always the 10%, but on the rare occasion , I agree with Zvenoman. His previous answer is spot on in every regard.

And FFLís are not generally lazy. Crotchety and ornery maybe, but generally not lazy. Most, and I mean the vast majority, donít understand enough about vintage 1911s to understand that the slide stamp is not necessarily the maker.

And no this is not directed at anyone, just my opinion.
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