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Old 02-22-2021, 08:56 AM
dave tengdin dave tengdin is offline
 
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Default Evolution of 00 Buck for anti-personnel.

I'm curious how 00 Buck came to be the standard round as an anti-personnel round. We all know that 9 pellets out of a 12 gauge at any kind of a distance is going to be a terrible pattern, though it is the effective equivalent of a whole magazine dump of 32 Auto's. A smaller shot size like # 4 Buck still gives you .25" projectiles, and plenty enough penetration in soft targets. It would be far more effective. We've all had game like ducks fly right through a pattern before. A (very lucky) man could certainly squeeze through a 00 Buck pattern. The home defense people say to use a smaller shot like bird shot if you are going to use that as your defense weapon.

Does anyone have insight in to this?

Last edited by dave tengdin; 02-22-2021 at 09:16 AM.
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Old 02-22-2021, 09:13 AM
1hdrocks 1hdrocks is offline
 
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Here is some info from AR15.com regarding self defense ammunition. Not saying it’s gospel, just some information to chew on

SHOTGUN AMMUNITION

The single biggest mistake people make is to assume that the power of the shotgun is such that it negates having to select proper ammo. Through no experience or research they might come to the conclusion that birdshot is a perfectly acceptable choice for self defense? Why? Because they "feel" it's adequate for the most part.

Nothing is further from the truth. Once again, the shotgun ammunition needs to perform the same function as rifle and pistol ammo, which is to penetrate about 12" into ballistic gelatin. Fragmentation/expansion are usually not an issue in shotgun ammo, so that factor can be ignored for the most part.

For an excellent article which explains it better than I could, please read "Shotgun Home Defense Ammunition on firearmstactical.com.

The summary from that article states:

Number 1 buck is the smallest diameter shot that reliably and consistently penetrates more than 12 inches of standard ordnance gelatin when fired at typical shotgun engagement distances. A standard 2 -inch 12 gauge shotshell contains 16 pellets of #1 buck. The total combined cross sectional area of the 16 pellets is 1.13 square inches. Compared to the total combined cross sectional area of the nine pellets in a standard #00 (double-aught) buck shotshell (0.77 square inches), the # 1 buck shotshell has the capacity to produce over 30 percent more potentially effective wound trauma.

In all shotshell loads, number 1 buckshot produces more potentially effective wound trauma than either #00 or #000 buck. In addition, number 1 buck is less likely to over-penetrate and exit an attacker's body.

For home defense applications a standard velocity 2 -inch #1 buck shotshell (16 pellet payload) from Federal, Remington or Winchester is your best choice. We feel the Federal Classic 2 -inch #1 buck load (F127) is slightly better than the same loads offered by Remington and Winchester. The Federal shotshell uses both a plastic shot cup and granulated plastic shot buffer to minimize post-ignition pellet deformation, whereas the Remington and Winchester loads do not.

Second best choice is Winchester's 2 -inch Magnum #1 buck shotshell, which is loaded with 20 pieces of copper-plated, buffered, hardened lead #1 buckshot. For those of you who are concerned about a tight shot pattern, this shotshell will probably give you the best patterning results in number 1 buck. This load may not be a good choice for those who are recoil sensitive.

While #1 buck might be ideal IF the the shot is hardened, the reality is that these loads might be hard to find. If finding hardened #1 proves elusive, 00 buck is a great choice instead.
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Old 02-22-2021, 09:14 AM
Herrmann Herrmann is offline
 
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I rely on 00 figuring a close encounter.
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Old 02-22-2021, 11:20 AM
Pinecone Pinecone is offline
 
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#4 has limited penetration after it penetrates heavy clothing like winter garb.
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Old 02-22-2021, 03:38 PM
rcolarco rcolarco is offline
 
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Everyone has his own idea, mostly based on a sample size of zero. I saw one guy shot with #4 Buck, about 15 yards, light clothing. He went down, and was not going anywhere, although he probably recovered.
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  #6  
Old 02-22-2021, 03:50 PM
AzMedic AzMedic is offline
 
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for illustrative purposes -- Comparisons in ballistics gelatin

https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/sh...arious-rounds/
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  #7  
Old 02-22-2021, 05:53 PM
mycanoe44 mycanoe44 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dave tengdin View Post
I'm curious how 00 Buck came to be the standard round as an anti-personnel round. We all know that 9 pellets out of a 12 gauge at any kind of a distance is going to be a terrible pattern, though it is the effective equivalent of a whole magazine dump of 32 Auto's. A smaller shot size like # 4 Buck still gives you .25" projectiles, and plenty enough penetration in soft targets. It would be far more effective. We've all had game like ducks fly right through a pattern before. A (very lucky) man could certainly squeeze through a 00 Buck pattern. The home defense people say to use a smaller shot like bird shot if you are going to use that as your defense weapon.

Does anyone have insight in to this?
Home Defense and Anti-Personnel can be 2 very different things. I think the Military came up with 00 buck for anti-personnel use to cover a wide range of engagements from 10' to 50 yards. There is no standard engagement ranges in these situations and you are shooting to kill the enemy without much regard for Collateral damage. Home or personal defense is different in that you just want to stop the threat without killing innocent bystanders, your neighbors or "overkill" the perp, as you will be facing possible charges. We're talking closer ranges and no Collateral damage if possible.

In your home, you need to measure from the longest wall to wall distance minus 8 feet or so and from the entryway to the farthest likely spot you would be shooting from. You don't need to worry about anything farther than that. In my house, thats about 24' or 8 yards. At 24' I would want at least a 12"+ pattern, so with my 28" duck gun, that would be #8 bird shot. With the legal 16" barrel shotgun, maybe #4 bird shot. I haven't tested it, but 00 buck would likely be a 2" to 4" pattern from an 18" riot gun at 12' from the tests I've seen. I'm not comfortable with that in my house especially with someone on the move. #8 bird shot from a home defense or riot shotgun is going to stop most perps, plus you have 2 to 4 or more shots left. No one in the next room, driveway, or neighbors would be fatally harmed hopefully.

Now if I'm on my property and someone is shooting at me from 30+ yards away, thats a whole different story. In MN, if I have the opportunity to flee, I must and would be prosecuted if I returned fire and harmed someone, even the perp.

For CC I have a small 10 to 12rd 9mm semi auto pistol with a green laser in an IWB holster. Thats also my HD weapon for now because I haven't decided on what may be better. I'm leaning toward a 20ga "other" (very short barrel, pistol grip, but not listed as a short barreled shotgun) for the pattern and least over penetration. Or a Judge type revolver with laser for its devastating PD rounds, short distance pattern, and maneuverability. A guy at work got one and I'm itching to try it out (they are not fun to shoot).
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Old 02-22-2021, 07:22 PM
jayej2156 jayej2156 is offline
 
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Without ever researching buckshot, I do know it drops a deer pretty good within range, & most deer have more get up & go after being shot than human beings.
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  #9  
Old 02-23-2021, 12:16 AM
USAF Sarge USAF Sarge is offline
 
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This brings up and touches on the conundrum and the questions and issues asked by people on home defense concerns.

As many of you have stated collateral damage is a concern. I had my dad's 44 magnum loaded as a back up gun in the house. But later thought better of it, due to potentially sending a round into a neighbors house.

Yeah it would kill the perp, but at what cost to a neighbor. So the ballistics and information mentioned here regarding shotgun use is very interesting. Thank yall for bringing this up and for all the information shared thus far.
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Last edited by USAF Sarge; 02-23-2021 at 12:39 AM.
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  #10  
Old 02-23-2021, 12:37 AM
casper casper is offline
 
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One of the reasons for 00 buck that I've heard is that police use it and they use it because they have to account for each pellet. 9 pellets from 00 buck vs 16 from #1 buck.
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