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  #1  
Old 12-13-2014, 10:25 AM
dalbert dalbert is offline
 
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Default Winchester Model 75 - "Property of USA"

I was at the Friday afternoon session of the Louisville Gun Show yesterday,and observed a Winchester Model 75 in the low 60000 serial number range that was marked "Property of USA." I found one online reference to a Winchester 52D marked in this manner, but with periods between each letter of U, S, and A. It looked like a very well done, added mark on the Model 75 yesterday.

Does anyone have opinions on such a marking. Do you think the "A" would stand for "Army," or "America," or do you think it might be a fake marking attempt?

David Albert
dalbert@sturmgewehr.com
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  #2  
Old 12-13-2014, 12:37 PM
Dollar Bill Dollar Bill is offline
 
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I have a couple US marked Winchesters but they are 52s. I haven't ever seen one marked "U.S.A.", just US Property. The Winchesters were a US purchased of commercial rifles so the markings are not roll marked but rather engraved rather sloppily. The Remington's, on the other hand are roll marked but in every case I have seen, the Markings as US, not USA.

Post over at RimFireCentral in the Winchester section. You'll get a good answer for sure. They live and breathe this stuff.
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Old 12-13-2014, 12:49 PM
dalbert dalbert is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dollar Bill View Post
I have a couple US marked Winchesters but they are 52s. I haven't ever seen one marked "U.S.A.", just US Property. The Winchesters were a US purchased of commercial rifles so the markings are not roll marked but rather engraved rather sloppily. The Remington's, on the other hand are roll marked but in every case I have seen, the Markings as US, not USA.

Post over at RimFireCentral in the Winchester section. You'll get a good answer for sure. They live and breathe this stuff.
Bill,

Thanks, I went ahead and posted it there as well.

David Albert
dalbert@sturmgewehr.com
__________________
NRA
Past President, The American Thompson Association
American Society of Arms Collectors
Ohio Gun Collectors Association
Thompson Collectors Association
Carbine Club
Garand Collectors Association
International Ammunition Association
Contributing Writer, Small Arms Review Magazine
Co-Author, "Thompson Manuals, Catalogs, & Other Paper Items" Collector Guide
One of the "Other Authors" of "The Ultimate Thompson Book," by Tracie L. Hill
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  #4  
Old 12-13-2014, 03:24 PM
schutzen-jager schutzen-jager is offline
 
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british lend lease ?
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  #5  
Old 12-13-2014, 03:29 PM
dalbert dalbert is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schutzen-jager View Post
british lend lease ?
The British are tenacious about marking their firearms, and I did not observe any such marks on the rifle. I examined it pretty closely.

David Albert
dalbert@sturmgewehr.com
__________________
NRA
Past President, The American Thompson Association
American Society of Arms Collectors
Ohio Gun Collectors Association
Thompson Collectors Association
Carbine Club
Garand Collectors Association
International Ammunition Association
Contributing Writer, Small Arms Review Magazine
Co-Author, "Thompson Manuals, Catalogs, & Other Paper Items" Collector Guide
One of the "Other Authors" of "The Ultimate Thompson Book," by Tracie L. Hill
Eagle Scout, and Member of NESA
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  #6  
Old 12-14-2014, 07:34 AM
schutzen-jager schutzen-jager is offline
 
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i had a lend lease model 67 + still have a M+P marked US property with no british
marks at all -
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  #7  
Old 12-14-2014, 09:15 AM
dalbert dalbert is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schutzen-jager View Post
i had a lend lease model 67 + still have a M+P marked US property with no british
marks at all -
How are you certain the two items you mention were lend-leased to Britain? There were some items, many of which were civilian type firearms, that were gifted internally from American groups/clubs to British groups/clubs that may not have been marked, but government procured firearms were normally marked to British standards. I obviously can't attest to 100% compliance, but they were pretty thorough, from what I've heard from British collectors.

I'm fairly certain from discussion with another collector that the Model 75 I observed had the marking added as a fake.

David Albert
dalbert@sturmgewehr.com
__________________
NRA
Past President, The American Thompson Association
American Society of Arms Collectors
Ohio Gun Collectors Association
Thompson Collectors Association
Carbine Club
Garand Collectors Association
International Ammunition Association
Contributing Writer, Small Arms Review Magazine
Co-Author, "Thompson Manuals, Catalogs, & Other Paper Items" Collector Guide
One of the "Other Authors" of "The Ultimate Thompson Book," by Tracie L. Hill
Eagle Scout, and Member of NESA
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  #8  
Old 12-14-2014, 03:06 PM
schutzen-jager schutzen-jager is offline
 
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interarms advertised them as such when they ere purchased -
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  #9  
Old 12-14-2014, 03:54 PM
dalbert dalbert is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schutzen-jager View Post
interarms advertised them as such when they ere purchased -
Maybe so...But the guns don't tell the same story today, nor will they for future collectors. Without markings, or very specific paperwork, their lend-lease pedigree is highly suspect, regardless of how Interarms marketed them at the time.

Think of yourself as a current or future collector who desires lend-lease items. Would you buy the unmarked guns, or others that were British proofed in addition to their US Property markings?

David Albert
dalbert@sturmgewehr.com
__________________
NRA
Past President, The American Thompson Association
American Society of Arms Collectors
Ohio Gun Collectors Association
Thompson Collectors Association
Carbine Club
Garand Collectors Association
International Ammunition Association
Contributing Writer, Small Arms Review Magazine
Co-Author, "Thompson Manuals, Catalogs, & Other Paper Items" Collector Guide
One of the "Other Authors" of "The Ultimate Thompson Book," by Tracie L. Hill
Eagle Scout, and Member of NESA
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  #10  
Old 12-14-2014, 06:37 PM
Dollar Bill Dollar Bill is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dalbert View Post
The British are tenacious about marking their firearms, and I did not observe any such marks on the rifle. I examined it pretty closely.

David Albert
dalbert@sturmgewehr.com
British, as well as other European countries, have proof laws going back to the 1800s. While presence of British proof marks is not a guarantee that is was a lend-lease, the lack of proof marks pretty much tells the story.
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