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  #31  
Old 05-06-2016, 07:43 AM
Hummer Hummer is offline
 
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Location: Aiken, South Carolina
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Windlogik,
Very well stated Sir.

What would be a shooters defense if one of his cases goes down the neck of person next to them and that person goes into involuntary gyrations and touches off a round and shoots another competitor?

Its kind of like saying "I can drive on either side of the road I want to and it is up to everyone else to protect themselves and if I am on their side of the road and they don't run off the road to avoid me, it's their own fault"

If you know your rifle is doing this and you do nothing and you are a direct contributor to a shooting or death getting up in court and screaming "its part of the game", "everyone should wear a hoodie", "its my rifle and I will put brass wherever I want to", " the person shot should not have come to the match", "they should suck it up like a man", I don't think is gonna get far.

It is well likely your attorney is going to wind up with your entire bank account and your home defending your above statement.

Look up the definition of negligent homicide? See if you can find any rulings that said the person that got shot should have had on body armor?

Did you know your rifle ejects brass so it is likely to put brass on next firing point? No

Have you ever picked up brass from next firing point from your rifle? Yes.

How did your brass get on his point? ahhhh the brass fairy put it there.

In the last ten matches your fired in where did your brass go?

Has anyone else picked up your brass from their firing point? Yes

Have you ever attempted to adjust your case ejection pattern? No

Why not?

If your fix did not work why did you continue to use it?

Case deflectors are allowed in CMP and NRA competition for a few bucks and you don't have one?

Why not?

How much did you pay for your rifle?

How much did you spend going to the match?

How much have you spent trying to get a Presidents 100 Tab?

How much have you spent trying to get a Distinguished Rifleman Badge.

How much did all your shooting gear you take to the line cost?

Do you have a computer?

Did you ever look up articles about hot case ejection on line? Why not.

Are you on a forum that showed how to fix the problem for about .25 cents?

You are a match director, you know this happens and do not enforce the rule? Why not?

You are a line officer and you saw this happening and did not put a stop to it?

Bet everyone on the line has a camera in their cell phone. Wanna bet someone won't photograph your brass? the blood, your rifle, you?



I had a lawyer buddy and we talked about similar. He put it this way, you stop and jump a guys car off that has a dead battery. He immediately pulls out into traffic and hits another car. You are going to court as a contributor to the accident because it was not your duty to help another. In court you had not better take the attitude this little girl would not have been disfigured for life if she had not been in the car.

I hit a car in the back once, 99.9% of the time this is your fault. It was snowing, we were on 4 lane (two each way) Guy in front in the outside lane in front of me all of a sudden starts making a U turn (no signal) crossing the inside lane, woman in inside lane hits brakes and lost control and slid over into outside lane where I was and I hit her. It was ruled the guy in the front caused the wreck. Why did guy make sudden U turn? He was turning to go help a guy with dead battery.

I walked down to where the U turner had stopped, informed him he caused the wreck. He developed a highpower shooter attitude and left. I got his tag number and gave it to police. The woman was not charged, I was not charged. Anyone want to guess who was?
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Distinguished Smallbore Prone & Highpower Rifle, Presidents 100, Member US Palma Teams & US Dewar Teams. Certified Small Arms and Ammunition Test Director Aberdeen Proving Ground, Maryland. Conducted small arms testing for US Army TECOM, Army Materials Systems Analysis Activity and the US Marine Corps.
Commandant USMC Commendation for "Exceptional Performance" on M16A1E1 Rifle Testing (adopted as M16A2) Army Commendation Dover Devil Cal 50 Machinegun Program.
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  #32  
Old 05-06-2016, 07:53 AM
aloreman aloreman is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Fl
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Getting hit by the ocasional piece of brass is part of the game. If your gun constantly bounces brass off the guy next to you yes thats a problem. But if every once in a while ya get hit with a piece of brass suck it up buttercup. Maybe try fclass?
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  #33  
Old 05-06-2016, 11:48 AM
Roadkingtrax Roadkingtrax is offline
 
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Location: AZ
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Holy reductio ad absurdum...

I think most people (competitors) here are looking at it as the occasional occurrence. Like shooting at a range with cover, and the firing point is adjacent to a support beam/pole...sometimes an ejected case will cart-wheel on its own. No self-respecting shooter would find joy in piling up brass on their neighbor like sand at the beach, may just be a smidgen disingenuous to stereotype here.

In long range bolt gun shooting, the case is going as far as you want it to...which can be controlled. Clearly the issue is with semi-auto only.

I'm shooting a 30 cal, and banished to the far end already because it's too noisy. The muzzle blast makes me blink, get that away from me.

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  #34  
Old 06-02-2016, 03:50 PM
Hummer Hummer is offline
 
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Location: Aiken, South Carolina
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In a bolt gun the case is almost cold when it comes out. In an AR the cases are about 171F when they come out and 3rd degree burns occur at 155F if I remember my research right.
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Distinguished Smallbore Prone & Highpower Rifle, Presidents 100, Member US Palma Teams & US Dewar Teams. Certified Small Arms and Ammunition Test Director Aberdeen Proving Ground, Maryland. Conducted small arms testing for US Army TECOM, Army Materials Systems Analysis Activity and the US Marine Corps.
Commandant USMC Commendation for "Exceptional Performance" on M16A1E1 Rifle Testing (adopted as M16A2) Army Commendation Dover Devil Cal 50 Machinegun Program.
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  #35  
Old 06-03-2016, 12:41 PM
aloreman aloreman is offline
 
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I shoot in the neighborhood of 40 highpower matches a year and never realized this was such an epidemic.
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  #36  
Old 02-16-2019, 05:46 PM
Hummer Hummer is offline
 
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A cut and paste from the Army Safety Center website:

Hot Brass
in the Summertime
“Put the weapon down and step away!” You usually only hear that phrase on television cop shows late at night, and if you hear it in real life, you’re probably in big trouble. But these words don’t apply only to criminal situations. Many a negligent discharge might’ve been prevented if someone had spoken up when they saw a comrade acting in an unexpected or less-than-safe manner. Such was the case in a recent negligent discharge accident.
After 30-odd pages of analysis, the local and centralized accident investigation boards came up with a recommendation for live fire ranges. When something unsafe or unexpected happens on the range, the person(s) involved should put the weapon down and step back before doing anything else. The chance for error and a negligent discharge is greatly reduced when the most dangerous object around is removed from human hands.
Before this particular accident, some Soldiers and Air Force members were training perimeter defense techniques. Two Airmen situated side by side fired their M16s over a wall at moving targets downrange. Hot brass from the left Airman’s weapon landed on the other Airman’s neck and rolled down his back. The burned Airman jerked his left hand up and pivoted his body to the left as he tried to brush away the scorching metal. However, his rifle was still in his right hand, and he didn’t remove his finger from the trigger as he turned toward the other Airman. The M16 slipped off the table support, and its falling weight applied pressure to the burned Airman’s trigger finger, causing the weapon to fire and hit the Airman to the left. He suffered extensive abdominal injuries but fortunately survived the incident.
Could this type accident happen on your range? The odds of this exact incident happening again are phenomenally small, but there’s always a chance when live ammunition is involved. Hot brass is a fact of life on live fire ranges, and it’s also a common problem in close combat and military operations in urban terrain environments. But anything from a bee sting to a lightning strike or just a good scare could cause any Soldier to react in the same manner as the Airman in this accident, regardless their operational location.
Leaders and individual Soldiers applying Composite Risk Management (CRM) to their live fire training should automatically identify negligent discharges as a primary hazard on the range. But it’s important not to discount the other events and circumstances that might result in an accident. A good resource for leaders preparing for a live fire exercise is the lessons learned from other units that have either recently completed similar training or conduct it on a regular basis. Identify what their problems were, assess your unit’s risk, and mitigate accordingly.
The unit in this accident had the required officer in charge (OIC) and range safety officer (RSO) on the range that day, as well as additional safety officers who were acting as observers/controllers (O/Cs) during the exercise. Although not a contributing factor, it’s possible the O/Cs could’ve missed an unsafe act because they were preoccupied with their controlling responsibilities. When training Soldiers or Airmen who aren’t accustomed to live fire ranges, leaders must assess their safety officers’ duties to ensure they aren’t overtasked. For units that regularly train on these ranges, leaders should assess the need for safety mechanisms above and beyond what’s usually required.
Before they take over the range, OICs and RSOs are required to attend training with their local range control, and there are several vital questions that must be asked during this interaction. What are the steps for medical evacuation? What is the fastest and safest route to the nearest treatment facility? How will range control assist the unit with evacuation operations? These are important issues that must be discussed and planned for before the first shot is fired. When an accident or other injury occurs isn’t the time to figure out the actual execution of a medical evacuation.
It’s as simple as this: Put some thought into planning your next training event. CRM isn’t just a paper drill for the operations order. Rather, it’s a tool to help leaders identify how their Soldiers are at risk and how they plan to mitigate it. Visit the U.S. Army Combat Readiness Center’s Web site at https://crc.army.mil to find out more about CRM and how you can Own the Edge both on and off the range.
Comments regarding this article may be directed to the USACRC Help Desk at (334) 255-1390, DSN 558-1390, or by e-mail at helpdesk@crc.army.mil. The Accident Investigation Division may be reached through USACRC Operations at (334) 255-3410, DSN 558-3410, or by e-mail at operationssupport@crc.army.mil.



BTW I was told by a individual at the Army Safety Center that multiple deaths and shooting are on file there from hot brass hitting adjacent shooter and that shooter accidentally shooting a shooter next to him.
__________________
Distinguished Smallbore Prone & Highpower Rifle, Presidents 100, Member US Palma Teams & US Dewar Teams. Certified Small Arms and Ammunition Test Director Aberdeen Proving Ground, Maryland. Conducted small arms testing for US Army TECOM, Army Materials Systems Analysis Activity and the US Marine Corps.
Commandant USMC Commendation for "Exceptional Performance" on M16A1E1 Rifle Testing (adopted as M16A2) Army Commendation Dover Devil Cal 50 Machinegun Program.
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  #37  
Old 02-18-2019, 08:54 PM
crackedwindshield crackedwindshield is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Alabama
Posts: 135
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I have personally talked with the head honcho about this problem. He says “build a wall”.
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