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  #41  
Old 02-19-2013, 07:19 AM
dbarn dbarn is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lbelflowers View Post
I believe the hammer is original but, not to this gun. I think the Underwood hammers sent in April 1944 would be found in the 6.7-6.09 million range serial numbers. This gun is showing a serial number of 4620868,which I think would put it in the Feb. 1944 time frame. Pg 212 of War Baby puts the serial number well within the range of this theory. If if this receiver was delayed 2 months, the magazine release is questionable then, serial numbers in the 4.5 million range and after are showing up with the type 3 magazine release. Can we get a picture of the magazine catch(where the finger goes)?
Actually this would be the approximate 188,767th Rock-Ola carbine produced within 12,000 of the end of the second block. According to the production chart at the end of WB the production is showing early April 1944. The hammers from Underwood were shipped 04-03-44, making the lateral transfer entirely possible.

Regarding the long face mag catch, they have been known to show up later than expected on original appearing Rock-Ola carbines.
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  #42  
Old 02-19-2013, 07:52 AM
lbelflowers lbelflowers is offline
 
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So,the 4.620 million series of serial numbers were built out of sequence to the carbines tested in early March of 1944 at the 5th interchangeabity test? Does your numbers take into account the scrap rate for receiver numbers?
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  #43  
Old 02-19-2013, 09:53 AM
Firstflabn Firstflabn is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lbelflowers View Post
So,the 4.620 million series of serial numbers were built out of sequence to the carbines tested in early March of 1944 at the 5th interchangeabity test?
Unless Rock-Ola carbines were selected in some way other than randomly from current production (and not over a three month period), then the fact that those in the Fifth Interchangeability Tests cover a range of 100,000 serial numbers is a pretty good indication that they were completed and accepted considerably out of sequence.

The question would then turn to how far ahead of the test date was the order issued to begin selecting samples and what method was to be used. Without those details, parts availability dates cannot disprove the hypothesis that this carbine is configured as it left the factory.
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  #44  
Old 02-19-2013, 02:12 PM
BQ97 BQ97 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Firstflabn View Post
Unless Rock-Ola carbines were selected in some way other than randomly from current production (and not over a three month period), then the fact that those in the Fifth Interchangeability Tests cover a range of 100,000 serial numbers is a pretty good indication that they were completed and accepted considerably out of sequence.
Not necessarily so. The span of serial numbers alone does not provide any insight to whether the serial numbers were used, assembled, or accepted in or out of sequence. The span of 100,000 serial numbers used in the fifth Interchangeability test does not equate to 100,000 carbines. Rock-Ola used 244K serial numbers to produce 228K carbines without skipping any significant span of serial numbers so we know there was some waste of already serial numbered receivers, as there was with all manufacturers.

The carbines selected for the Ordnance sponsored tests were taken from already accepted stores of carbines awaiting shipment. The ten carbines selected from Rock-Ola were packed in late February 1944. I have the exact dates but can't dig out that info at the moment. The unknown is how long the crates sat under Ordnance Dept. control before being shipped. The span of 100,000 serial numbers could easily encompass most of the December 1943 - February 1944 production.
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  #45  
Old 02-20-2013, 05:30 PM
southfork southfork is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Idaho
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My battlefield-pickup Rockola carbine (serial# 4,572,9XX) has the round bolt, but does not have the long-face magazine catch. Also, it has a Rockola Hammer rather than an Underwood, as far as I can see without taking the hammer out. Battlefield modifications were always possible, and, of course those interchangeabilty tests mucked things up.
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  #46  
Old 02-24-2013, 11:22 AM
HkPlinker HkPlinker is offline
 
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Location: H'Burg Mississippi
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The Blade . . . . I'm still waiting for the date . . . . The suspense . . .
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  #47  
Old 02-24-2013, 07:26 PM
DaveM4P99 DaveM4P99 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HkPlinker View Post
The Blade . . . . I'm still waiting for the date . . . . The suspense . . .
Well until propjetprop can post pics of the tang...here is a little teaser...

Member "Southfork" sent me photos of a blade that was also captured during WWII...









The signature probably reads Bishu Osafune Suke Mitsu

Probably from sengoku jidai period roughly in c.1500-1600...also known as the "warring states" period of Japan - when there was a lot of civil war. A very interesting time to say the least...so this blade could have very well been used in battle over the past 400-500 years!

Here are a few blades made by the same sword smith, for comparison of the signature (mei) style and blade style:

http://japanese-sword.org/fss151.htm

http://www.aoi-art.com/sword/katana/08045.html

The second blade (above) by this same sword smith is selling for 1,950,000 YEN...or around $20,000. Now, that blade is a FULL SIZE KATANA in FULL POLISH...so Southfork's blade is worth much, much less due to its smaller size (wakizashi size) and its very poor condition.

Yes, his blade COULD look like one of the above polished blades, as long as there is not too much deep pitting or damage. The tip (kissaka) is chipped, which could be a FATAL flaw if the "hamon" or temper line is compromised by the chip...but it could be reshapen and fixed if not.

Now, Southfork's blade's case is fairly rare...MOST blades turn out to be mass produced WWII era blades...but sometimes you find a gem...
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  #48  
Old 02-24-2013, 07:50 PM
moose moose is offline
 
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Location: Indianapolis
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Quote:
Originally Posted by propjetprop View Post
Here are pics of the Jap sword that came with the M1 my grandfather brought back from IWO Jima.....





That is interesting in it's own right.

Due to some silly Japanese law at the time these had to be shortened and they made the handle longer and covered up some of the blade, this looks like it may be one. I am not saying you should, but on many of these blades if you undo the handle you will find the dulled down part of the blade in the handle.
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  #49  
Old 02-24-2013, 07:54 PM
DaveM4P99 DaveM4P99 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moose View Post
That is interesting in it's own right.

Due to some silly Japanese law at the time these had to be shortened and they made the handle longer and covered up some of the blade, this looks like it may be one. I am not saying you should, but on many of these blades if you undo the handle you will find the dulled down part of the blade in the handle.
Read the whole thread so you can learn what I have been saying about the blade...

A lot of Japanese blades that were hundreds of years old at the time of WWII old were shortened at the TANG by the Japanese military in order to comply with military regulations, and so they would fit standard Japanese mountings (handguards, handles, scabbards etc.) - Shortening a blade so it could serve a certain purpose was called "Suriage." The very rusted blade I posted photos of above is a "suriage" blade...you can see that part of the signature is missing at the bottom...but I was still able to ID it (most likely).

Some Japanese officers carried mass produced WWII era blades made in factories...and some wealthier, higher ranking officers carried family heirloom blades to war, some that were made hundreds and hundreds of years ago.

The "Nakago" (tang) is the part of the blade under the the handle that you are saying is the "unsharpened" part of the blade...it may or may not have a signature chiseled into it, which would tell us the swordsmith, and then we can figure out the age of the blade.

It's a shame this blade is broken in half...it COULD be a very old blade worth tens of thousands of dollars...or it could be a WWII blade worth more like 500-1000...depending on condition and WWII swordsmith...But now that it is broken it is not worth much at all...but still a cool piece of history for sure.

Last edited by DaveM4P99; 02-24-2013 at 08:09 PM.
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  #50  
Old 03-01-2013, 03:18 PM
propjetprop propjetprop is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
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Soo sorry for the delay on the photos of the blade!

I have been out of town, as soon as I return I will get photos of the tang up... I have not disassembeled the blade yet...

thanks for your patients... they are comming.. promise
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