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  #11  
Old 09-19-2018, 11:52 PM
lapriester lapriester is offline
 
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10 times more dry fire practice than live fire after you figure out proper "natural" position. The latter being the critical factor. With that combined with many matches you can get better in a shorter time. No dry fire and only occasional matches and you may never break 80, maybe not 75 in your life except if you just happen to have a lucky day when weave, drift and jerk happens to result in unexpected, uncalled results.

It took me 3 years of constant practice and many matches to get into the 80's. Then, after buying a Creedmoor heavy coat had to basically start over again it was so different. But, I was an old fart when I started. Muscle training and conditioning for old farts takes time and that's the name of the game in awful-hand. If you don't have constant matches to compete in dry fire is your only option. If you have to work hard in standing at every match you need more dry fire to improve.

Last edited by lapriester; 09-20-2018 at 12:34 AM.
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  #12  
Old 09-20-2018, 12:01 PM
gunny gunny is offline
 
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Pick an aiming point, take your position, aim in, close your eye for 5 seconds, open your aiming eye. Still reasonably on target? if not, adjust your position and repeat.....
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  #13  
Old 09-20-2018, 01:09 PM
champ0608 champ0608 is offline
 
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Location: Oregon
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Offhand has been my favorite since day one. I average 94-95% which is actually better than my slow prone.

If you don't have a hardback coat, get one. Dryfire, dryfire, dryfire. Remember that trigger control is still vital. Be disciplined. Have fun.

Pushups, squats, and jogging all help tremendously as well.
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  #14  
Old 09-20-2018, 01:53 PM
hebes405 hebes405 is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Barberton, OH
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Quote:
Originally Posted by champ0608 View Post
Offhand has been my favorite since day one. I average 94-95% which is actually better than my slow prone.

If you don't have a hardback coat, get one. Dryfire, dryfire, dryfire. Remember that trigger control is still vital. Be disciplined. Have fun.

Pushups, squats, and jogging all help tremendously as well.
It's my favorite too. Sometimes I do well sometimes really poor. All my shots are on call, I just struggle with establishing my NPA, which is half the battle of off hand.
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  #15  
Old 09-21-2018, 08:10 AM
Greg Ficklin Greg Ficklin is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: South Carolina
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I would say that the majority never get "good". If you define good as a 90+ average. You have to get organized, and practice with all of your gear. Many people don't set up everything when they dry fire or practice, and never develope the attension to detail required to do really well on their feet. This causes anxiety, and poor scores. They dred the stage and hope to make up the lost points on the other stages. One trick is to learn to like it enough to focus on it primarily. Every trip to the range is dedicated to standing practice first, not after using most of the range time refining zeros and load testing. As time gets away the standing may get pushed back to another day like a chore you didn't want to do anyway.
I developed a good way to practice that puts the focus on the short line automatically. I call it "get out of the hole"
You start by placing all of your gear, and using the same time restraints of prep period and regulation time for live fire. Use the standard SR, or SR-1 target. It's really good to do with a .22 upper because you will shoot a lot ! For centerfire practice, a ShotMarker, or Silver Moutain system is ideal.
*************** Get Out of The Hole************************
Shoot 10 rounds standing and check the score.
For every point lost, you owe the target another shot. You have dug a hole.
Shoot the shots you owe. If less than 10, do them standing. Any more than 10, but less than 20 points were lost shoot those in sitting, and the last 10 in standing. If more than 20 points are in the hole take those in prone, then the 10 sitting, and the last 10 standing. Every 10 gets you out of the hole. 9's are neutral as thy don't deepen the hole, and everything else digs it deeper.
This practice reverses the trendency to focus on what you are good at, and teaches you that 9's are killers of scores. A good shooter can start, and get out in one session. The number of shots fired is an indicator of progress. Make a note of what you owe so you can resume on the next practice session if you didn't get out in one session It may take hundreds of shots to finish, or the whole season of practice, but when you do you will be pretty darn good at standing. You will have worked out every detail of your shot process. It simulates the match pressure you put on yourself so that you can learn to deal with it in practice. Tens are the only way to "get out of the hole".
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  #16  
Old 09-21-2018, 08:12 AM
dw617 dw617 is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
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I practice offhand _a lot_. During the summer months, we have a weekly summer league offhand - 22 rounds at 200. If there is a match that weekend, I will shoot the Friday before 20 rounds, plus a rapid or two if I feel I need some more practice there. I do not dry fire as much as I should.

Something clicked where I was able to finally accurately call my shots. Another milestone was my brain automatically pulling the trigger when I wobbled into the part of the black I needed to be. Prior to that, I was thinking too much about pulling the trigger and would wobble out.

For me now, offhand is a mental game. In practice at my home range I have shot a 97. In out local walk and paste matches, where I am co-directing the match and feel very comfortable, I have pulled a 95 for score. The best I have ever shot in a Leg match is a 91. I did get my hard leg with a 90 standing, I just made up for it elsewhere.

Another thing, not so much at XTC matches, but in local GSMV matches a lot of guys refer to standing as Awful Hand. I always move away from those guys, because I don't even wanna hear it. They've dug their own grave before the first shot.
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  #17  
Old 09-21-2018, 02:29 PM
Rootsy Rootsy is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Monroe, Michigan
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If you REALLY want to be good on your feet when it counts then you need to shoot on your feet so much that it becomes a job rather than an event. Sheer experience from practice and matches eventually dulls your fight or flight instinct when it comes to offhand. Along the way you will have fired so much on your feet that you will have developed muscle memory, a shot process and trained your brain, eyes and body to react together to execute when it is in the middle.

Lones Wigger said it takes 3-4 years to learn to shoot, another 3-4 to figure out how to win and another 3-4 after that to actually do it on a regular basis.
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  #18  
Old 09-21-2018, 09:27 PM
6.5 Swedish 6.5 Swedish is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rootsy View Post
If you REALLY want to be good on your feet when it counts then you need to shoot on your feet so much that it becomes a job rather than an event. Sheer experience from practice and matches eventually dulls your fight or flight instinct when it comes to offhand. Along the way you will have fired so much on your feet that you will have developed muscle memory, a shot process and trained your brain, eyes and body to react together to execute when it is in the middle.
This is VERY good advice. You have to shoot so much offhand it becomes routine and boring. Ho-hum, that's a 10 at 6 o'clock. Next shot...

I don't dry fire much, but I shoot a LOT of live fire in practice. All I did this summer was shoot offhand. It paid off to a large extent, but I still botched a couple of matches anyway.

There are several problems getting to this stage, though. Establishing NPA for different rifles is a chore. You will have a different hold for a Garand as opposed to an AR. You've got to work with different holds to see what is best. It makes no sense to practice a bad hold without an NPA. This takes time. Lots of it.

The other thing is executing it on match day. This is largely a mental issue. Remaining calm on match day and doing what you practiced can be tough. I shot some very good offhands this year (97s, 95s, 94s) that gave me some nice Master and HM scores... but I also had a couple of matches where my mind was just blown due to non-match stresses and I simply couldn't settle it down and I chucked 15 points away right in the first stage and finished with Expert scores. If you blow a shot and shoot a 7 you've got to be able to not let it rattle you and go on to shoot a string of 10s. In one practice session this summer, I shot two 8s -- but finished with a 96. You've got to be able to do that in a match, too.

And cut the coffee out before offhand! That makes a difference.

So in addition to practicing offhand incessantly, you've got to make sure all your other stuff -- lodging, travel, caffeine, etc. -- doesn't cause you any stress on match day.
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  #19  
Old Yesterday, 04:54 PM
goryshaw goryshaw is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Utah
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I'll know when I get there.
I'm not bad, but not good either, just very inconsistent.
Average is around an 80, ranging from hi 70s (77) to low 80s (82).
Occasionally hi 80s (87) or a miss here and there dropping well below the average.
I'm slowly getting better, and it's much better than my first match at the 2013 western games.
I tend to shoot better offhand with an M1 Garand or M1903/1917 than I do with my AR.
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  #20  
Old Today, 08:10 AM
Greg Ficklin Greg Ficklin is offline
 
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Location: South Carolina
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I tend to shoot better offhand with an M1 Garand or M1903/1917 than I do with my AR.[/QUOTE]

This is true for me too, especially the 03. It is because they are longer and the support hand can come all the back the trigger guard. This allows the maximum weight to be distributed to the front providing a slower drifting sight picture. Slower is always better because trigger weight is time.. The conventional wisdom is to add weight to the rear of the AR to acheive ballance, or a rear heavy rifle. If you shoot the 03 better on your feet, you may want to get the weight of your AR a little more on the front.

Dry firing is the skill of shooting, and a drill to develope the skill up to a point, and then it's maintenance. Dry firing is a two edged sword in that is very bennificial early on to get a 40 pt shooter to be an 80 pt shooter, and it can hold you back without the needed feedback to get finely tuned. The crude mechanics are practiced to eliminate misses, and 5's, but most stall out around the 80 pt average. This is where the finer points of shooting on your feet come in. Dry firing can become detrimental at this stage because it reinforces the habits that produce 80 pt. scores. Shooters that have gotten to the 95+ average can dry fire without feedback from the target. They are in maintenance mode. They aren't learning to get better. They are practicing to maintain the level they have acheived. They know subconciously that every shot was good or bad and can actually score themselves from their shot calls. But the developing shooter needs some feedback to progress faster. Using a .22 upper or dry firing with a feedback system like a SCATT developes you into new territory to get you over the dry fire plateau. The feedback is the key. It slaps your hand or praises you on every shot. This will cut months or years off the process. The .22 CLE upper got me out of the 80pt zone. I have to shoot on my feet with it regualrly or my scores detiriorate, but I can usually get everything back in line very quickliy with the .22.
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