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  #11  
Old 09-03-2014, 09:56 AM
wags2161 wags2161 is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Roadkingtrax View Post
You can say theyre forged. Otherwise, functionally I dont know?
Agree with that. EVERYONE has an opinion. If you have a problem with an SAI rifle they take care of it. Who else offers a warranty like that. LIFETIME. Personally I love the preban 5 line receivers. I don't like the new laser etching etc going on. That to me is far from what an original M14 receiver looked like. So u know I'm not bashing anyone and its MY opinion. Some like certain ones because they are easy to build on. There are some nice receivers out there, go with what YOU like!
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  #12  
Old 09-03-2014, 11:04 AM
M14 M14 is offline
 
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Originally Posted by aloreman View Post
What makes them "better"

Casting cannot obtain the strengthening effects of hot and cold working. Whether open or closed die forging is used, the forging process surpasses casting in predictable strength properties - producing superior strength that is assured, part to part.

A casting has neither grain flow nor directional strength and the process cannot prevent formation of certain metallurgical defects. Preworking forge stock produces a grain flow oriented in directions requiring maximum strength. Dendritic structures, alloy segregations and like imperfections are refined in forging.

Casting defects occur in a variety of forms. Because hot forging refines grain pattern and imparts high strength, ductility and resistance properties, forged products are more reliable. And they are manufactured without the added costs for tighter process controls and inspection that are required for casting vs forging.

Better response to heat treatment. Castings require close control of melting and cooling processes because alloy segregation may occur. This results in non-uniform heat-treatment response that can affect straightness of finished parts. Forgings respond more predictably to heat treatment and offer better dimensional stability.

Some castings, such as special performance castings, require expensive materials and process controls, and longer lead times. Open die forgings are examples of forging processes that adapt to various production run lengths and enable shortened lead times.

In answer to the OP. The Rockola receivers are pretty good. There are still some defects that are not corrected yet, but can be built by someone that knows what to look for and how to correct them.

The primary and most difficult to fix is the right bolt lug window radius is off in the front bottom and is not cut wide or deep enough to allow the bolt to close to full battery condition. You can clearly see it in OD#3 post in the pictures forum.

His is hitting there and is shiny. It is also stopping his bolt from locking fully into battery. A g.i. bolt will not lock in and the Rockola bolts will lock in, so there is a dimensional difference between them and a g.i. bolt in this fitted radius area.

It is not a high impact area or worry for hardness issues though. The bolt's right lug front, upon returning from rearward, hits higher on the back of the barrel ring, then settles into this radius area, thankfully. But the impact is only what an op rod spring can generate. But enough tiny taps will do damage. So you can work it out to the right spec to fit a g.i. bolt, without harming the integrity of the receiver. Just stay low in the radius area only and feather it out both ways. Of course you will have to repark it or touch up with cold blue to hide your work.

The next is the shelf the right lug sits on when in battery. There are humps in every single Rockola I have seen and worked on to date. This also inhibits the bolt from achieving full battery condition.

Third is humps in the rear receiver heel and the bolt's curved arc raceway. Just in front of the spot face heel cut about 1/2" to 3/4" or so, and a few burrs occasionally in the faced cut.

Fourth is the bolt roller impact area relief is not centered under the right lug window. Once you correct the radius previously mentioned, the impact relief cut is off center. But it is off center regardless if fixed or not. It needs to be moved where it belongs and I forgot to mention this one to the owner.

There is a few more small things, but nothing insurmountable. Just make sure you have a good armorer build it for you.

Once these are corrected, the Rockola is good to go in my opinion. I spoke with the owner of Bula Forge about all of these issues and he is on it now. I'm most impressed that somebody has "finally" gotten the locking lug locations and the barrel ring length correct in an M14 type commercial receiver.
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  #13  
Old 09-03-2014, 11:23 AM
aloreman aloreman is offline
 
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I still dont see what makes them better in a practical standpoint. Yes they are stronger than a sai cast reciever. But sai builds equally accurate guns at half the cost with recievers that stand up to more rounds than any of us will ever shoot. And if the reciever fails they fix it for free forever. I have a hard time saying something is better when the end result is the same
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  #14  
Old 09-03-2014, 11:26 AM
aloreman aloreman is offline
 
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Not saying the rockola and lrb ect arent nice just hard for me to say "better"
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  #15  
Old 09-03-2014, 11:42 AM
sleepinclass sleepinclass is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M14 View Post
Casting cannot obtain the strengthening effects of hot and cold working. Whether open or closed die forging is used, the forging process surpasses casting in predictable strength properties - producing superior strength that is assured, part to part.

A casting has neither grain flow nor directional strength and the process cannot prevent formation of certain metallurgical defects. Preworking forge stock produces a grain flow oriented in directions requiring maximum strength. Dendritic structures, alloy segregations and like imperfections are refined in forging.

Casting defects occur in a variety of forms. Because hot forging refines grain pattern and imparts high strength, ductility and resistance properties, forged products are more reliable. And they are manufactured without the added costs for tighter process controls and inspection that are required for casting vs forging.

Better response to heat treatment. Castings require close control of melting and cooling processes because alloy segregation may occur. This results in non-uniform heat-treatment response that can affect straightness of finished parts. Forgings respond more predictably to heat treatment and offer better dimensional stability.

Some castings, such as special performance castings, require expensive materials and process controls, and longer lead times. Open die forgings are examples of forging processes that adapt to various production run lengths and enable shortened lead times.

In answer to the OP. The Rockola receivers are pretty good. There are still some defects that are not corrected yet, but can be built by someone that knows what to look for and how to correct them.

The primary and most difficult to fix is the right bolt lug window radius is off in the front bottom and is not cut wide or deep enough to allow the bolt to close to full battery condition. You can clearly see it in OD#3 post in the pictures forum.

His is hitting there and is shiny. It is also stopping his bolt from locking fully into battery. A g.i. bolt will not lock in and the Rockola bolts will lock in, so there is a dimensional difference between them and a g.i. bolt in this fitted radius area.

It is not a high impact area or worry for hardness issues though. The bolt's right lug front, upon returning from rearward, hits higher on the back of the barrel ring, then settles into this radius area, thankfully. But the impact is only what an op rod spring can generate. But enough tiny taps will do damage. So you can work it out to the right spec to fit a g.i. bolt, without harming the integrity of the receiver. Just stay low in the radius area only and feather it out both ways. Of course you will have to repark it or touch up with cold blue to hide your work.

The next is the shelf the right lug sits on when in battery. There are humps in every single Rockola I have seen and worked on to date. This also inhibits the bolt from achieving full battery condition.

Third is humps in the rear receiver heel and the bolt's curved arc raceway. Just in front of the spot face heel cut about 1/2" to 3/4" or so, and a few burrs occasionally in the faced cut.

Fourth is the bolt roller impact area relief is not centered under the right lug window. Once you correct the radius previously mentioned, the impact relief cut is off center. But it is off center regardless if fixed or not. It needs to be moved where it belongs and I forgot to mention this one to the owner.

There is a few more small things, but nothing insurmountable. Just make sure you have a good armorer build it for you.

Once these are corrected, the Rockola is good to go in my opinion. I spoke with the owner of Bula Forge about all of these issues and he is on it now. I'm most impressed that somebody has "finally" gotten the locking lug locations and the barrel ring length correct in an M14 type commercial receiver.
thanks for this detailed analysis. any thoughts on potential problem spots of lrb receivers/do you have a similar list?
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  #16  
Old 09-03-2014, 01:04 PM
M14 M14 is offline
 
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Location: south mississippi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sleepinclass View Post
thanks for this detailed analysis. any thoughts on potential problem spots of lrb receivers/do you have a similar list?
You are welcome. I have a few.

Right lug shelf hump and rail peening



Full retraction interference of bolt safety lug



Bolt stoppage from full travel, from manufacturer-note hump as well


Extent of bolt travel


Original fit spec inspection, right lug-should be matched surface-no light showing


Early runs -

Trigger guard locking cut-outs too high on receiver legs, too small radius for proper lock-up,
Bridge locations,
bridge thickness,
op rod rail horizontally out of line,
op rod rail canted in front and out of line,
rear sight pockets out of level and line,
rear sight receiver ears out of line and too small,
ears crooked to each other,
ears too high and too low,
serrations for elevation pinions too shallow and too soft,
barrel ring too thin from datum,
left and right locking lugs mislocated from datum,
decelerator rail with no raised groove for friction control,
too little space between lugs and barrel ring for G.I. bolts to fit and close to battery on a stripped receiver
Bolt lock shelf too high on bridge to allow use of SEI aftermarket extended bolt lock
Peening at right receiver lug radius cut, from horizontal to vertical, on decelerator rail.
Bolt roller impact, at the decelerator slot, and in battery position.

Recent runs-

Bridge locations,
bridge thickness,
Bridge bolt saddle or 60 degree arc cut, made too tall and/or receiver top too low to accept new old stock G.I. bolts,
barrel ring too thin from datum,
left and right locking lugs mislocated from datum,
G.I. barrels not headspacing due to lug relocation order by LRB.
Too far rearward and require up to .005 lapped off right side lug on bolt to gain left side contact
too little space between lugs and barrel ring for G.I. bolts to fit and close to battery on a stripped receiver
Bolt lock shelf too high on bridge to allow use of SEI aftermarket extended bolt lock,
Peening at right receiver lug radius cut, from horizontal to vertical, on decelerator rail.
Bolt roller impact, at the decelerator slot, and in battery position.


Current runs-

Bridge locations,
bridge thickness,
barrel ring too thin from datum,
left and right locking lugs mislocated from datum,
G.I. barrels not headspacing due to lug relocation order by owner. Now too far forward and require up to .006 cut off receiver lugs to accept new in the wrap G.I. bolts.
too little space between lugs and barrel ring for G.I. bolts to fit and close to battery on a stripped receiver
Bolt lock shelf too high on bridge to allow use of SEI aftermarket extended bolt lock
Peening at right receiver lug radius cut, from horizontal to vertical, on decelerator rail.
Burrs in top of receiver and waves where bolt top travels, constricting movement of bolt.
Burrs in receiver back at heel inside, and humps, constricting full movement of bolt fully to the rear on it's cycle of operation.
Right lug shelf hump
Bolt roller impact, at the decelerator slot, and in battery position.

The good news is the owner of LRB is a stand up guy and will usually take care of any problems on returns. At least I haven't ever heard of but one person that wasn't completely satisfied with them.

My problem with these is they have had like 12 years to perfect them, and are aware of these issues, yet refuse to change them. The biggest issue for me being, receiver bridge thickness and locations.

I can get around barrel ring length, and lug locations off, with different barrels and reamers and bolts, but the length of any given firing pin and protrusion coupled with a bridge that is badly out of spec, is flirting with trouble when there is no need for it to happen in the first place.

Don't bother posting, any of you, that you never heard of anyone blowing up an LRB yet, I don't really care to hear it. All I'm saying is there is a reason for the g.i. spec location and measurement, and if they are going to claim they are the closest to g.i. you can get, they should build them that way....or quit claiming it. It is a safety issue. As it stands right now, Bula Forge's Rockola receiver is the closest to g.i. you can get, without a doubt.
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  #17  
Old 09-03-2014, 01:43 PM
Roadkingtrax Roadkingtrax is offline
 
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Location: AZ
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aloreman View Post
I still dont see what makes them better in a practical standpoint. s theyre stronger than a sai cast reciever. But sai builds equally accurate guns at half the cost with recievers that stand up to more rounds than any of us will ever shoot. And if the reciever fails they fix it for free forever. I have a hard time saying something is better when the end result is the same
+1

Same self grandiosity crew here. Somehow the discussion always ends up the same, a game of which corner works for you.
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Last edited by Roadkingtrax; 09-03-2014 at 01:45 PM.
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  #18  
Old 09-03-2014, 04:19 PM
Danny Danny is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: NE Ohio
Posts: 616
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wags2161 View Post
Agree with that. EVERYONE has an opinion. If you have a problem with an SAI rifle they take care of it. Who else offers a warranty like that. LIFETIME. Personally I love the preban 5 line receivers. I don't like the new laser etching etc going on. That to me is far from what an original M14 receiver looked like. So u know I'm not bashing anyone and its MY opinion. Some like certain ones because they are easy to build on. There are some nice receivers out there, go with what YOU like!
Are you referring to the new typestyle on the receiver heel that is a style with serifs? If so, I really don't like that either. Well, Springfield Armory may have a lifetime warranty, but there is a really great chance that you will need it. I have three our four of their M1A products, whether they be receiver or full rifle at this moment. I don't know if a single one of them HASN'T had warranty issues, but in a lot of cases, I have dealt with it myself. Based on the kind of work I have seen, I don't want them fixing it unless it is unavoidable. I really don't like sending them back to also possibly get some new problem while an old one is fixed, or attempted to be fixed. I'd rather buy from a company that has NO warranty, but gets things correct.

Danny
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Looking for Rifles:
Springfield Armory 5,940,259, 5,840,184, 4,238,435 and 2,023,912.

Harrington &Richardson 5,549,399.

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"REPO" M1 Parts: The parts that you buy that they come to take back later on.
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  #19  
Old 09-03-2014, 05:53 PM
nf1e nf1e is offline
 
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I think that in this day and age, if a problem shows up that is a result of manufacturing, most if not all companies will stand by their product and make it good. I agree with Danny on this one. I don't care if there is no warranty at all, I am looking for a product that never needs to be returned because of inferior cast parts. Plain and simple. For my dollars, I will continue to use LRB or James River and then of coarse when I absolutely have to have a cheap cast receiver, I will use Fulton's as I did a year ago.



Semper Fi
Art

Last edited by nf1e; 09-03-2014 at 05:57 PM.
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  #20  
Old 09-03-2014, 06:23 PM
Orlando Orlando is offline
 
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I do not want to get into the debate of forged or cast receivers but dont think its fair to call cast "cheap" Yes the are less expensive to manufacture and purchase . You calling them "cheap" makes it sound as though the will fail prematurly . I havent ever heard of anyone wearing out a cast M1A receiver or reports of them failing
I have M1A's built on a 2001 SAI and 2013 Fulton receivers with all USGI parts and I have had no issues with either
I would be more concerned about the commercial parts that come on todays M1A rifles. They seem to be prone to breakage/problems
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