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  #1  
Old 06-21-2011, 09:53 AM
panzer panzer is offline
 
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Default Israeli Mauser in 7.62x51

Mr. Orest and the CMP rules commitee,

Please consider allowing the Israli issued chambering of 7.62x51mm ( 308) to be consisered legal. It is in fact as issued by the Israeli government for its Army, even though they originally started life as manufactured in 8mm, then re made completely into a new services rifle in 7.62x51mm. The Israeli Mauser in 308 is a unique and historical firearm that has fought for freedom and deserves recognition and use in its as issued form of 308 as that IS the way it was issued to the Israeli troops and used in conflict. The vintage military rifle match is after all an as issued match and not an as manufactured match. I believe the spirit of the rules requiring original chambering is to prevent the competitor to gain an advantage by rechambering an as issued rifle to a more common caliber. Not to say that an entire nations rifles rechambered by thier govt for thier issue to a national Army is an illegal modification.

Many countries change demensions and specifications on the rifles and chamberings. I have seen issued K98's from Norway in 30'06 and 308. Are these then to be considered Illegal as well?

Again I submit the spirit of the rules should be assesed and the intention of the prohibitions emplaced by the rules to be considered. Ignoring the historical value of the 308 chambering by the Israeli Government and classifying the rifles as illegal for use in a Vintage Military rifle match take away from the solid historical signifigance of the rifles and keep people from having an opportunity to compete with a significantly historical rifle as it was issued to its Armies that fought and died for a free state of Israel.

Thank you for your time and consideration in the matter,

Jonathan O'Neal
  #2  
Old 06-21-2011, 10:16 AM
lthilsdorf lthilsdorf is offline
 
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Hmm, I didn't know that wasn't allowed. My Israeli Mauser is one of my favorite rifles and shoots pretty well to boot! Hopefully they will reconsider!
  #3  
Old 06-21-2011, 10:45 AM
Paladin601 Paladin601 is offline
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But when were they converted to 7.62 mm? I believe it was after the cutoff date for vintage rifle and vintage sniper.

just my .10 cents worth ( inflation)

Last edited by Paladin601; 06-21-2011 at 11:52 AM. Reason: spelling
  #4  
Old 06-21-2011, 03:56 PM
panzer panzer is offline
 
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I was told it wasn't, then told it was last year, and now being told it isn't allowed again. As for a cutoff date, I didn't know one existed. So the Finnish Mosins that were remade in the 1960's are past the date as well? Or do we go by reciever dates, which the Izzy Mauser would then be pre cut off date as well?

I just believe deep in my heart that the spirit of the rules is to keep Joe Competitor from Rechambering an existing rifle to gain an edge. The strict interpretation and application of this rule:

6.3.6 As-Issued Foreign Military Rifle

(11) All as-issued rifles must be chambered for the cartridge for which they were originally chambered.

is whats keeping these fine rifles from competing. I would submit that the remanufacturing of the rifles into Israeli standard configuration and being built as 7.62 rifles for General issue meet the criteria as originally chambered by that country, seeing as it is an as issued match and not an as manufactured match.

It just seems to go against the spirit and focus of the vintage rifle matches to disallow these rifles in competition. They will have no more of a competitive edge than any other approved rifle. I just hate to see people get turned away from a sport I enjoy.

Jonathan O'Neal
  #5  
Old 06-21-2011, 04:05 PM
Paladin601 Paladin601 is offline
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Originally chambered 8 X 57 then coverted to 7.62 in the late 1950's, but the were originally chambered in 8mm, even the FN k98 made for the IDF.

11) All as-issued rifles must be chambered for the cartridge for which they were ORGINALLY chambered.

Even the Izzy were orginally chambered in 8 mm. But then again I am not on the rules commitee. and I prefer the 8mm over the 7.62 in the 98, but thats just me.

This would be the same reason that the Garands coverted to 7.62 are not allowed.

Last edited by Paladin601; 06-21-2011 at 04:13 PM. Reason: to add context.
  #6  
Old 06-21-2011, 04:36 PM
panzer panzer is offline
 
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Yep, even the rifles made by FN directly for the Israeli's were chambered in 8mm, then converted. However none of these rifles exist in 8mm anymore. They were all remanufactured by Israel in 7.62, then issued, so its really how they were issued. I too, prefer the 8mm in a 98, lots of thump and can be loaded very accurately with the sierra 200 gr. bullets.

As for garands, the Navy did the mods to meet thier needs and requirements, but it was only on a relatively few rifles in the context of total M1's, and the last M1 to be made was probably safe to say chamberedin 30'06. It is in standard as issued format in 30'06. The IDF K98 is in its standard issued form in 7.62, even if it was originally a 7.92x57. If every garand was rechambered to 7.62x51 By the US, and NO 30'06 ones were readily or commonly available, would they not be as issued as well?

I see this as more of a unique circumstance for these rifles and the spirit of the rules is in question here, as the rules as I pointed out above strictly read and interpreted require them to be in 8mm. However Israei K98 Mausers in 8mm are probably rarer than any other VR qualified firearm, and completely out of reach for a competitor.
  #7  
Old 06-21-2011, 04:42 PM
Paladin601 Paladin601 is offline
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I do see your point, especially if your's is an FN, But I also see their point if it was a German or Czech Mauser.

This is a tough one, Good Luck!
  #8  
Old 06-21-2011, 04:59 PM
panzer panzer is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paladin601 View Post
This is a tough one, Good Luck!
Thank you, and Yep, quite a pickle wouldn't you say?

I have one of each, the German is a 1939 JP Sauer rifle that retains its original markings, and has the star of david stamped on the reciever right next to the eagle. A good reminder to the soldier that carried it to keep vigilant.

Its just one of those obscure rules that covers 99% of situations and is a great rule in of itself, I just don't see it applying well to the Israeli rifles. It is very easy to be swayed one way or the other and there is no clear answer that fits these rifles unique history 100% I just would like to see more people have more choices for shooting in the VR Matches. I love the CMP matches, lots of fun and more about the shooters and less about the equipment.
The Garand Matches and Garand Infantry Match in particular got me started in High Power. I shot with the Blind Hogs and learned alot. Discovered the CMP and Highpower after giving it the cold shoulder over 15 years ago. ( IPSC was more "fun" to a 21 yr old) I have made some of best friends in my life and learned more about honesty, integrity,and sportsmanship from this crowd of people than anywhere else, including 17 years of military service. I never laughed so hard or felt as proud or accomplished doing anything else. Best sport to exist in my opinion. You could show up to any match out there with an entry fee and desire and people will loan you everything else if they had to. Never see that anywhere else.
  #9  
Old 06-21-2011, 05:05 PM
Paladin601 Paladin601 is offline
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You have that right, a greatesr bunch of people, I have ever met, period
  #10  
Old 06-21-2011, 05:45 PM
Jeremy2171 Jeremy2171 is offline
 
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I just wished the early foreign semi-autos were allowed.
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