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-   -   Correct sights for CMP .22 rifles (http://forums.thecmp.org/showthread.php?t=63833)

presidentg 01-03-2012 04:32 PM

Correct sights for CMP .22 rifles
 
Not much going on in PresidentG world so I thought I'd make a list of the front and rear sights needed for the .22 rifles CMP has for sale right now.
Remington 40X-Redfield Olympic front and rear
Remington 521- Blade front, Lyman 57RS rear
Remington 513- Blade front, Redfield #75 RT rear
Remington 541X- Redfield #68 globe, Williams FP Low Target
Remington 540X- No sights provided ( Nick Stroebel Old Gunsights & Riflescopes suggests a Redfield #63 globe front and Redfield # 75 rear. Most of my references indicate no sights provided.)
Stevens 416- Blade front, Stevens #106 rear ( The Stevens #25 globe would also be correct. Finding the #25 and #106 will be challenging. Try Gerry Fellers TX)
Mossberg 44US- Hooded blade front, Mossberg 100 or Lyman 57MS rear
Mossberg 144US- Globe front, Redfield #75 rear
Harrington & Richardson M12- Redfield Olympic front Redfield Palma rear
Winchester 52- Redfield Olympic front and rear

Some will be easy to find, some will be very challenging. Finding correct sights for old target rifles is what makes collecting them fun!!
Good luck:cool:

edlmann 01-24-2012 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by presidentg (Post 498338)
Remington 521- Blade front, Lyman 57RS rear
Remington 513- Blade front, Redfield #75 RT rear

Just to clarify, the "blade front" on the 521 is a regular sight installed into a female dovetail in the barrel. Looks like this:

http://www.gunpartscorp.com/images/catalog/82550.jpg

The front sight of the 513T is sometimes called a ramp style and looks like this:

http://www.gunpartscorp.com/images/catalog/726360.jpghttps://www.gunpartscorp.com/pub/products/726360.jpg

FWIW, these configurations would be as the rifles left Remington.

I think the 521Ts had all been modified to use a Redfield 75 rear sight at some point or another.

Some 513Ts were modified by adding a front globe sight into a barrel dovetail and others were modified by adding an adapter for a clamp-on front globe sight.

mp1stsgt 01-24-2012 01:24 PM

I have a 513T with the cylindrical, front globe sight, so will the Redfield 75 rear sight still work with that, or will I need change it over to a bladed front sight? Thanks

docsg 01-24-2012 01:39 PM

Will any of the other listed sights work on a 513T as configured from the CMP? Worried might well miss out on Redfield 75.
thanks

edlmann 01-24-2012 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mp1stsgt (Post 515018)
I have a 513T with the cylindrical, front globe sight, so will the Redfield 75 rear sight still work with that, or will I need change it over to a bladed front sight?

It will depend on exactly what front sight you have and it's height, but it apparently worked with a Redfield 75 for the people that installed it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by docsg (Post 515036)
Will any of the other listed sights work on a 513T as configured from the CMP? Worried might well miss out on Redfield 75.

Only the Williams Target Foolproof, which was OEM on the 541X. The Mossberg S100 will only work on Mossbergs and the other Redfields all use a 10-32 mounting screw; the Redfield 75 uses a 8-40 mounting screw. If you miss out entirely, I'd get a Lyman 90 MJT. Both it and the Williams Target Foolproof are still in production. The Lyman is a better sight, IMHO.

Late breaking CMP rumor/poop:

http://img832.imageshack.us/img832/1...sacc120124.jpg

docsg 01-24-2012 02:24 PM

thank you, very helpful

mp1stsgt 01-24-2012 02:46 PM

Yes, that's what I hoped. Thanks

Jano 01-24-2012 02:48 PM

So what do I need for my 513t I got from the CMP last go around? Redfield 75 on the rear? What about the front? Thanks for the help.

edlmann 01-24-2012 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by docsg (Post 515036)
Will any of the other listed sights work on a 513T as configured from the CMP? Worried might well miss out on Redfield 75.

The problem with this question is that there was no single configuration from the CMP. AFAIK, all the 513Ts and 521Ts shipped with a Redfield 75 rear mount block. The Williams Target Foolproof (Low) will fit on this base, but may be a bit low. There's a high version, but if you miss, I'd get a Lyman 90 MJT:


davh 01-24-2012 11:06 PM

I went with the Lyman 90 MJT and 20 MJT on my 513 and they work great.

USAR6 01-25-2012 12:04 AM

Which Redfield for the 513
The PS078A Redfield Model 75 Rear Sight W/aperture or one of the other Refields there are 3 other Redfield's ???
Dick

Panzer52 01-25-2012 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by edlmann (Post 515249)
The problem with this question is that there was no single configuration from the CMP. [/IMG][/CENTER]

Thanks for the help edlmann, there is some good onfo here on a confusing subject.

aj98 01-25-2012 03:09 PM

+1 on the Lyman.

I prefer the Lyman over Williams in part b/c don't need a screwdriver handy to adjust elevation.
(williams uses a setscrew to lock the elevation adjustment)

edlmann 01-25-2012 07:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aj98 (Post 516397)
I prefer the Lyman over Williams in part b/c don't need a screwdriver handy to adjust elevation.
(williams uses a setscrew to lock the elevation adjustment)

Brownells sells a gib lock thumbscrew, SKU 962-000-079. If your sight has target knobs, no need for a screwdriver to adjust the sights.

hutchman 01-25-2012 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by edlmann (Post 515048)
It will depend on exactly what front sight you have and it's height, but it apparently worked with a Redfield 75 for the people that installed it.


Only the Williams Target Foolproof, which was OEM on the 541X. The Mossberg S100 will only work on Mossbergs and the other Redfields all use a 10-32 mounting screw; the Redfield 75 uses a 8-40 mounting screw. If you miss out entirely, I'd get a Lyman 90 MJT. Both it and the Williams Target Foolproof are still in production. The Lyman is a better sight, IMHO.

Late breaking CMP rumor/poop:

http://img832.imageshack.us/img832/1...sacc120124.jpg

Hmmm, I see no Redfield Palma listed on estore :(

edlmann 01-25-2012 11:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hutchman (Post 516812)
Hmmm, I see no Redfield Palma listed on estore :(

You snoozed.

hutchman 01-25-2012 11:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by edlmann (Post 516916)
You snoozed.

What? I just got the email from CMP this evening that said the sights were available! And they said they were to "reserve" some for the folks that just bought rimfires this last go around.

edlmann 01-26-2012 12:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by docsg (Post 515036)
Will any of the other listed sights work on a 513T as configured from the CMP? Worried might well miss out on Redfield 75.

Someone sent me this pic a while back of a Redfield Olympic mount for a 40X modified to fit on a 513T:

http://img696.imageshack.us/img696/6...rearsightb.jpg

Eljay 01-26-2012 12:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hutchman (Post 516934)
What? I just got the email from CMP this evening that said the sights were available! And they said they were to "reserve" some for the folks that just bought rimfires this last go around.

They seem to be back at the moment.

eplexus 01-27-2012 06:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by edlmann (Post 516949)
Someone sent me this pic a while back of a Redfield Olympic mount for a 40X modified to fit on a 513T:

http://img696.imageshack.us/img696/6...rearsightb.jpg

There are also a couple other interesting options for Redfield sights on the 513T. First is a "high" base. Redfield made a base stamped RT-HIGH that raises the Redfield 75 rear sight about a 1/4" above the height of the standard base. The comb on the 513T is pretty tall. This base helps a bit with making the 513T more of a man sized rifle. The taller base also lets you use the 513T w/75 out to +100yds.

Redfield also made a 513T base that allows you to mount an Olympic rear. Don't have the number offhand, but I have one.

Both of these are hard to find, but come up every so often on FleaBay.

edlmann 01-27-2012 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eplexus (Post 517829)
Redfield made a base stamped RT-HIGH that raises the Redfield 75 rear sight about a 1/4" above the height of the standard base. The comb on the 513T is pretty tall. This base helps a bit with making the 513T more of a man sized rifle. The taller base also lets you use the 513T w/75 out to +100yds.
Redfield also made a 513T base that allows you to mount an Olympic rear. Don't have the number offhand, but I have one.
Both of these are hard to find, but come up every so often on FleaBay.

I'd say VERY hard to find - almost at the level of unobtanium.

I was skeptical about modifying a 40X base, but it would be easier and less expensive than waiting to bid up the price of one of the originals.

I have Viani scope mounts for both my 513Ts and the Viani mount includes an integral iron sight mount that will accommodate either a 75 or an Olympic. Viani raises the line of sight some 3/8". Not my rifle in this pic, but you can get the idea:


SMiller 01-27-2012 09:54 AM

Rem 40X vs 40XB sights
 
In Presidentg's great list of sights for .22's, it shows the Redfield Olympic F/R for the 40X. I once read somewhere awhile back that the 40X used the Olympic and the 40XB (heavy barrel) had the Redfield International or Palma. Does anyone know if this correct or was it an option you could use/get?
Thanks.
SMiller

Fogtripper 01-27-2012 10:20 AM

I'd probably defer to the barrel date code, compared with what was in production when the rifle was assembled. Weren't Internationals being manufactured in the mid-50s?

presidentg 01-27-2012 10:56 AM

In Nick Stroebel's book the Remington 40X is listed as being delivered with the Redfield Olympic front and rear or delivered with no sights. The 1966 Shooters Bible lists the 40X, standard or heavy barrel, rimfire or centerfire, as no sights with Redfield Olympics front and rear as an option.
Price in 1966? Without sights-$154.95 with sights-$184.95
Price today? $3500+. I fear I've lived too long.

eplexus 01-27-2012 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by edlmann (Post 517890)
I'd say VERY hard to find - almost at the level of unobtanium.

I was skeptical about modifying a 40X base, but it would be easier and less expensive than waiting to bid up the price of one of the originals.

I have Viani scope mounts for both my 513Ts and the Viani mount includes an integral iron sight mount that will accommodate either a 75 or an Olympic. Viani raises the line of sight some 3/8". Not my rifle in this pic, but you can get the idea:


How much windage adjustment do you lose by using a modified 40X base? Recently, original 40X bases have been hard to find as well. Typical they've been going for about $40 ($20 at CSS).

I picked up the RT-HIGH for $40 and Numrich was selling two of the Olympic bases on Fleabay last Aug. Got one with screws, for $15 and forgot to bid on the second. Don't think enough people knew what it was.

If you don't look, you don't find.

Fogtripper 01-27-2012 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by presidentg (Post 517965)
In Nick Stroebel's book the Remington 40X is listed as being delivered with the Redfield Olympic front and rear or delivered with no sights. The 1966 Shooters Bible lists the 40X, standard or heavy barrel, rimfire or centerfire, as no sights with Redfield Olympics front and rear as an option.
Price in 1966? Without sights-$154.95 with sights-$184.95
Price today? $3500+. I fear I've lived too long.

Does he specify the retail versus the US/USMC rifles?

edlmann 01-29-2012 10:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fogtripper (Post 518020)
Does he specify the retail versus the US/USMC rifles?

Unlike the 40's 513T contract, I don't think the USMC messed with the sight specs.

http://img542.imageshack.us/img542/2...s550840xad.jpg

nozero 02-23-2012 01:11 PM

The 521 front sight is a blade not a bead or mine are anyway.:)

edlmann 02-23-2012 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nozero (Post 519769)
I think the rear on the 521 was the Lyman 57 RS. It does not need a block.

Correct; however, AFAIK, all those the CMP shipped this last round had mounts for the Redfield 75 installed.

binlookin 02-23-2012 08:49 PM

521T front blade sight
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by nozero (Post 540594)
The 521 front sight is a blade not a bead or mine are anyway.:)

On my last trip to the NS, I found a 521T barreled action and Bob and I measured the blade dovetail sight that was on it. It measured from the bottom of the dovetail to the top of the blade .550.
Brownells has a 3/8 dovetail 'blank' that could be made to work if one was wanting to use a blade sight?
BTW I tried to tempt Bob into letting me just buy the sight from that barrel. He was very helpful and told me I could have it for what the barreled action was selling for.:D
binlookin

PS: I knew there was something else I needed/wanted to say here? After looking at the front blade sight on the 521 barrel at the north store, I realized that it did not look like the ones listed at Numrichs nor Brownells. It does not have a bead, It's a straight flat blade profile as you would look at it from the rear sight. From the side view The top of the sight is narrower, being approximately 1/8" wide then it tapers towards the base of the sight at approximately a 25* angle with the diaginal cut ending approximately 1/32" above the barrel. [NO! I didn't have enough sense to take a picture of it!] If anyone is going to the north store and there are any of those barrels with the front sight left on them? Snap a picture and post it.
A buddy and I are supposed to go to the SS in the next two to three weeks? If they have a barrel with a sight on it I will take a picture of one. I am satasfied after getting to see one up close and personal/ That there would be very little work to produce a very respectable replica from the blank that Brownells sells? If I get close enough to take a picture I will also take some measurements, THIS TIME! I had my head and hands full of Garands what else can I say!!!
I know! I know! there are other sights that will get the job done, but a major part of collecting these guns, at least for me. Is the never ending quest to restore the item as near to ORIGINAL as I can possably get them? [Now that I think about it, maybe I should have just paid Bob for the barreled action and front sight???]

schutzen-jager 04-19-2012 05:52 PM

blade w/o bead was standard on all production 521's -

edlmann 08-06-2012 08:18 PM

Army TM 9-1005-226-14, July 1959, shows the Lyman 525 sight on the Winchester 52, but I suspect these were replaced with Olympics whenever possible.

http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/8...525onwin52.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/hKGHYWV.jpg

ETA: The Army TM doesn't say, but the rifle shown is a 52C. The Army doesn't differentiate between the 52C and 52D.

aj98 08-07-2012 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eplexus (Post 517829)
There are also a couple other interesting options for Redfield sights on the 513T. First is a "high" base. Redfield made a base stamped RT-HIGH that raises the Redfield 75 rear sight about a 1/4" above the height of the standard base. The comb on the 513T is pretty tall. This base helps a bit with making the 513T more of a man sized rifle. The taller base also lets you use the 513T w/75 out to +100yds.

Redfield also made a 513T base that allows you to mount an Olympic rear. Don't have the number offhand, but I have one.

Both of these are hard to find, but come up every so often on FleaBay.


Redfield part number on the RT High for a 513T is 716010

Redfield part number for standard redfield base is 715009.

Try this site for 540 adn 513 (et al) mounts:
http://www.vmasa.com/Category/843/No...and-Optics.htm

The RT HIGH appears on this page:
http://www.vmasa.com/ItemDetails/710...eiver_Base.htm

Sturmgewehr57 01-03-2013 11:39 AM

Rem 37 sights question
 
Great Info & Thank-you's.

I've recently gotten a Rem 37, ser# 019xx, and am not sure what sights came on this beauty as OE. I was hoping that some of you guys may know, despite this model as not being CMP or DCS offered(???). I'd like to restore it, or verify it to be correct.

It currently has a rear sight I believe to be Remington w/ nifty adjustable aperture via rotating disc & globe style ft sight w/ replaceable aperture and is marked "Redfield" (looks like short style Lyman).

Are these correct for vintage circa 1937-39? Were there other options available? Are there any sources for these parts (I've come to know Wendell @ Outback recently). Any help/insights would be greatly appreciated.

Once this vintage Target .22 Bug Bites, It's quite the journey!

Thanks.

Bruce.:)

presidentg 01-03-2013 12:44 PM

In the beginning the 37 was delivered with the Remington Model 37 Rangemaster sight-
http://gnewyear.com/files/37Rem.jpg

This mounted on a standard Unertl scope block on the receiver. Be sure to notice the angle of the dovetail on the sight base.
This spells trouble. This sight had a rather short base to allow the operation of the safety. It sounds like your rifle has this sight. Do you have a picture?

Wittek-Vaver had the #37-RM Dial Micrometer sight. This had a cut out that permitted the operation of the safety. I would love to find one for my 37, I'm just not sure I want to see the asking price.
http://gnewyear.com/files/vaver37.jpg

Later model 37s had Redfield Olympic sights front and back. The trick with the Olympic is that it's difficult to set it up so that you can use the safety.
Here's a photo of the Redfield mounting block on a 37-
http://gnewyear.com/files/37-RED.jpg
This block allows the use of the Redfield Olympic, International and Palma receiver sights.
Any manner of riflescope that uses Cataract/Stevens/Unertl/POSA (did I get them all?) scope blocks will work on the 37.
Litschert, Fecker, Wollensak, Winchester (A5, B5, B3, 677, 697), Mossberg (7R, 7M4), Lyman (5A, 438, Jr. Targetspot, Super Targetspot) Neidner (!$!$!$!$!) and very early Unertls would all be comtemporary to the 37. http://unertl.alexweb.net/index.htm
New reproductions from Hi-lux Optics, the USMC Sniper 8x which is a copy of the USMC Unertl 8x and the Wm.Malcolm 3x and 6x would do very nicely.http://hi-luxoptics.com/product/rifl...x-usmc-sniper/
Yes, vintage target rifles are very addictive, so beware. Hopefully you have no wife/girlfriend or a rich, tolerant one (if rich and tolerant does she have a unwed sister?)
Have you fallen prey to the Martini Internationals?

Sturmgewehr57 01-04-2013 12:25 PM

Thanks Orest- Rem 37 is a real beauty
 
The more I tinker with this rifle, the more I like it. I've not shot it yet, but hope to get out of the deep freeze here & go to the range (can't wait).

It's very well made & feedback from others saying that it's way over-engineered. Well, "if it's worth doing, ... it's worth overdoing" has been ringing in my head for years now.;)

After speaking to a few appreciative, knowledgable old timers, they've told me that Remington built these to be their offering to compete with Winchester 52's. If Winchester sold theirs at a loss them I'm thinking Remington did as well & one guy told me they lost $37 per unit, thus "model 37".

I don't know how true this is, but they built very few in relative terms & they seem very dear to those that know them.:D

Other questions: 1) did they come from Rem with a handstop (as there is a short rail & seems logical)? 2) was the OE buttplate metal or white line style? This one's got a whiteline pachmeyer on it. Can I get any of this stuff from CMP?

Your info & pixs of sights were great... Thanks for the inspiration, despite it may get me into trouble with household management... OH Well...:rolleyes: It's better to beg forgiveness & have the rifle you want, than to ask permission & not have the rifle, or pistol, or car, or motorcycle, or tool, or whatever...:eek::GS:

Thanks again,
Bruce.

PS: After doing my 40X US model (still WIP), I've been bitten & now have this 37 & (3) 52's lined up. So far, she's gone along with me & encourages me, and even wants to go to the range when I take them...heaven(?):2T:

Sorry, Correction- Thanks, PresidentG...

presidentg 01-04-2013 02:43 PM

Have you found the secret to removing the bolt?
Just in case...
Open the bolt and you will see a small hole next to the ejector. Hold the trigger back and insert a small screw driver or drift and press down. The bolt releases and out it comes.
I used to think the 40X was the King of the Hill of American .22 match rifles until I finally found a 37. I watched for nearly 10 years. There are more than a few out there unfortunately many have been modified into benchrest rifles. To find one in original condition is unusual.
Here's a few more photos-
http://gnewyear.com/files/37-1937.jpg
http://gnewyear.com/files/37-1940.jpg
http://gnewyear.com/files/37Fsling.jpg

When the Model 37 hit the market it caused quite a panic at Winchester. The 52B was the curret model and many shooters found the trigger "buzzy" where the 37's trigger was/is wonderful. Winchester blind tested all manner of match rifles to judge the triggers. The 37 trigger prompted Winchester to bring out the Micromotion trigger and they even offered to retrofit the 52Bs already delivered. I have a 52B and honestly the trigger is pretty darn good. The 37 is better however.
From the photos the 1937 37 featured a front barrel band and a stock very much in the style of the 52. The 1940 37 changed the stock and switched to Redfield sights.
The close up is the standard front sling swivel. I don't find any reference to a hand stop being provided.
Whether the 37 is "over engineered" I won't say. What I will say is that it's one of the finest match rifles I've used. It's delightfully accurate. In fact it's almost no fun at 50 and 100 yds. Try it at 200 yds and you'll laugh with joy!
Target .22s are my passion and I'll just say this. I have 3 go to match rifles, my Anschutz 1913 SuperMatch, my Model 37 and my BSA Martini International MK4. I have 40Xs and 52s and I love them but they don't quite compare. The Anschutz is #1 if you're crazy enough to spend that kind of money you'll love every shot.
The 37 and Martini nip right at the Anschutz's heels. This is the fun stuff!!
FYI- Remington will send you a photocopy of the 37's owner's manual if you go to the website and request one.
Also any manner of parts will be hard to find and pricey. I wouldn't
expect to find any from the CMP. The 37 was delivered with a 5 round magazine and a single shot adapter. my 37 only had the 5 rd. mag. I searched for a single shot adapter online. I didn't find one but I did find that one sold at auction for near $200!
Ain't these rifles grand!!:D

PS-These rifles are solid investments. To be able to own one or many is truely a blessing. If you have a sweetheart that supports you in this, well you treat her real well cause you might be the most blessed man on earth!

Sturmgewehr57 04-23-2013 08:38 PM

Question(s) for Pres. G.
 
:eek: IT IS AS YOU EARLIER STATED.... I got the Rem 37 & 40x & Win 52D Projects done & you warned us all about the smallbore BSA Martini-International bug.
Well, to make it short, I've been lookin'!
I know that Martini-Internationals are not CMP rifles, but target competitional shooting is, and these definitely qualify, and being as though you're partially to blame for my predicament, I've got to ask this question::confused:
If you had to get one (or maybe two or maybe three) Martini-International Rifle(s) for accuracy and light competitional shooting, which one of the "Mk. X" versions would you get? Feel free to elaborate, as my research can always be bolstered by your experience and advisement (always appreciated).:rolleyes:

I'd welcome any guidance the members may have on this topic, as I've found a Mk. II (very clean rifle/missing sights) that appears to have a sight base for Redfield type rear & normal scope bases for ft sight.... or is it better to get one with the OE Parker-Hale sights?
Also found a Mk. III with scope rings (missing peeps) or does this spell trouble?:cry: Sights & parts can be very difficult to come by, and these appear to be a whole new adventure. Any Advice?
You warned me, and again, it is as you said.:cool:
Thanks for the help,
Bruce.

presidentg 04-24-2013 08:43 AM

Any of the Internationals are delightful rifles. The MK3 is of particular interest as it was the only model with a free floating barrel. This was accomplished with an aluminum hanger that was sandwiched in the receiver in the same way as the barrel is mounted. Unfortunately the use of aluminum created it's own problems. Stress on the forearm from the sling tended to deform the hanger resulting in barrel contact anyway. Also since the hanger was clamped into the receiver along with the barrel, the barrel often prevented the hanger from being tight in the receiver resulting in a loose forearm. However these were very minor issues in regards to the MK3's performance. All the other Marks had the forearm screwed directly onto the barrel. If I recall correctly BSA increased the length of the receiver with the MK3 and MK4, I know for certain the MK4 has a long receiver.
Scopes are forever a problem with any Martini action as to the nature of loading the cartridge and ejecting the case. Anything other than a long eye relief scope gets in the way of operating the rifle. Original Parker-Hale sights are always desirable and will add to the price of the rifle. I've also used Redfield Olympic/International/Palmas with great success.
My MK4 is an outstanding performer, second only to my Anschutz SM, which is saying something indeed as the Anschutz is 3 years old and the MK4 is more like 60.
Get one while you can.
Now, let's talk about Anschutz...;)

radom1935 10-31-2013 03:21 PM

H&R Model 12 Sights
 
Here are the sealed sights in my CMP Box with my Model 12.

http://i1294.photobucket.com/albums/...ps5273f197.jpg

http://i1294.photobucket.com/albums/...ps37280d5c.jpg
http://i1294.photobucket.com/albums/...ps6390ab05.jpg

http://i1294.photobucket.com/albums/...ps41ecea8b.jpg


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